Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach is hell-bent on upending the democratic functioning of the Dáil to protect his grubby deal with Deputy Michael Lowry. Today the Taoiseach will try to ram through unprecedented changes to Dáil rules to allow Deputy Lowry and his group of TDs to sit in Government and Opposition at the same time. These are TDs who have pledged to support his Government in good days and in bad, to use their own words. It is a farce and it is making a mockery of this Dáil. Frankly, the lengths to which the Taoiseach has gone with this brazen stroke are staggering.

Let us put an end to the charade. The Michael Lowry group are Government TDs, plain and simple. They designated themselves as such when they helped to negotiate, write and agree the programme for Government. Their colleagues were rewarded with ministerial office. That is the reality. On 23 January, the Government gave its word that it would work for a solution acceptable to both Government and Opposition. Hildegarde Naughton, then Chief Whip, pledged in the Dáil to “work to secure agreement, as soon as possible and acceptable to Government and Opposition", but clearly the Taoiseach's word means nothing. He has gone back on his commitment and has made no genuine effort to find a resolution. Instead, he proposes to turn the Dáil inside out by allowing Government TDs access to the mechanisms which the actual Opposition uses to hold his Government to account. He wants the utterly absurd spectacle of Michael Lowry and his group taking Leaders' Questions and pretending to challenge the Government they are part of.

This is a sham. The Taoiseach has dug in because he does not want to be accountable. His claim that this is all about speaking time for backbenchers is patently untrue. In fact, he wants to get rid of Taoiseach’s Questions on a Wednesday. Pull the other one, Taoiseach.

Accountability matters. Just ask those he misled on housing delivery during the election or the parents of children with special needs who the Government led up the garden path on funding of services. The Taoiseach does not want to be accountable. Is that not the truth?

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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This is stroke politics.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What exactly does Deputy Lowry have over the Taoiseach? What debt does he owe him? The former Fine Gael Minister, a rogue politician as the Taoiseach described him, is now kingmaker for the Government. This is a man the Taoiseach wants to sit in both government and opposition at the same time.

The combined Opposition has repeatedly sought to meet with the Taoiseach to resolve this matter. Our offers have either been rejected or ignored. He acts in bad faith. To meet his narrow short-term need to placate Lowry and Co., he now proposes to do real and lasting damage to the democratic processes of the Dáil.

Tá Fianna Fáil agus Fine Gael ag moladh feidhmiú daonlathach na Dála a iompú bun os cionn chun an socrú suarach atá acu leis an Teachta Lowry a chosaint. Ní ghlacfaidh muid leis. The combined Opposition is not backing down on this matter. We reject the Taoiseach's attempt to run roughshod over this Dáil and to ram through this motion. He can step back from the brink. He can still meet with the Opposition to work out a solution. What he will not get away with, however, is pretending that signed and sealed Government TDs can act as Opposition. You cannot be in government and opposition at the same time.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Ar dtús báire, is mian liom a rá nach n-aontaím in aon chor leis an méid atá ráite ag an Teachta McDonald.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Ní rud nua é sin.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Tá sé dochreidte an méid atá ráite aici. Níl i gceist againn ach ocht nóiméad ar an Mháirt agus ocht nóiméad breise ar an gCéadaoin a thabhairt do chúlbhinseoirí-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Amaidí.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Minus 45 minutes.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----an Rialtais agus Teachtaí Dála neamhspleácha. In essence, I have to say that-----

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Spoofer.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----the distortion of the debate is extraordinary. The disproportionate response of Sinn Féin and indeed the Opposition is extraordinary. Considering that this Dáil meets 101 days approximately per year.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Whose fault is that?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What is being proposed for 60 TDs is that they would have an opportunity-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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There is only one who matters.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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They have lots of opportunities and the Taoiseach knows it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----of eight minutes on a Tuesday and eight minutes on a Wednesday to ask a question of the Taoiseach of the day. That actually means that for an individual in that group of 60, it could be an opportunity-----

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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They have Taoiseach's Questions.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have not interrupted anyone. It basically means that once a year-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Who are you speaking to?

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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That is not the issue.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----a backbench TD may get that opportunity to speak in these sorts of questions.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It was not an issue when the Green Party was in government.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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For all that, the Opposition has manufactured a political row and has raised this issue to heights that are quite farcical given the enormity of the issues we have to face as a country.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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You have done this.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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If I may say-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Do Deputies wish to listen to the answer out of respect for the functions-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We want an answer.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Again, I respect-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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If the Deputies listen-----

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach does not respect this House.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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How does Deputy Lowry pull the Taoiseach's strings from that distance?

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Answer the question.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputies, please. The Taoiseach is speaking. Did Deputies not notice? A question was asked.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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But he is not saying anything.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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He is. The Deputy might not-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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He is talking to the Gallery.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I respect the rights of every Deputy who is elected to this House. I respect their rights.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Except those of the Opposition.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I respect their rights to be heard-----

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is that when you are in government?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----as well as their rights to speak.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Then why are you halving our time?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is an attempt already to frustrate my attempt to speak here this afternoon in response to Deputy McDonald.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach is trying to escape his responsibility. Some 30 hours per year is a Government scapegoat.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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In a more serious vein, the Opposition has been endeavouring to, if you like, direct or dictate a new departure, whereby it becomes the Opposition-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We are trying to stop a new departure.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Opposition is now saying that it is up to it to decide who sits where in this House, who forms what group-----

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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No, by agreement.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Ceann Comhairle has already decided.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is unprecedented by any yardstick.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That man is pulling your strings. That is what is happening.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have never, and I am in this House-----

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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What has he got on you?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputies, I am standing. I expect that you will respect the Chair. We are in a democratic House. This is Leaders' Questions.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputies, whether you like what is being said or not, please listen. That is the process.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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If we got an answer, that would be nice.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We have a lot of visitors in the Gallery. The public are watching. I am asking you all to have respect for one another, one and all. That is all I am asking for on behalf of those who are watching.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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They are subverting this Chamber.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I was first elected to this House in 1989. I have never seen an attempt like this to say-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Now we are getting a history lesson.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have never seen an attempt like this to tell-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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You are right. We will agree on that one. Never before have we seen a stroke like this.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputies, while you may not have respect for me, I am the Chair. When I speak, nobody else speaks.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Respect the Ceann Comhairle's decision.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputies, I am asking that you respect the process and the operation of the House.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Just stick to the decision that was made.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That means that when I speak, I ask you to have respect for the Chair. That decision has been made and it is well gone. We are in the democratic process of where we are on a different matter today. I ask Deputy McDonald to respond.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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No, it is the same matter.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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A Cheann Comhairle, with the greatest of respect, we are on the same ground. Micheál Martin can spare us and the nation his sanctimonious homilies on democracy. He has been here since 1989, which is a political lifetime. Never has such a brazen stroke been attempted. In all of the peculiar shenanigans of this place, there has never been something like this. The Taoiseach was quick enough to throw his own people under the bus in the last Dáil when it suited him. It is incredible that he will go to these extraordinary lengths for Deputy Michael Lowry.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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We are asking why. We should have an answer to this. It is as simple as this: the Taoiseach should not take people for fools. People know that for their interests to be protected and for politics and democracy to work, the Government has its prerogatives to discharge. We respect that. The Taoiseach needs to respect the duty and the prerogatives of the Opposition but he does not want that. He wants a blunt Opposition because he does not want to be held to account. If he is worried about his backbenchers, he should leave Taoiseach's questions on a Wednesday. That gives them ample opportunity to raise matters with him.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I hope Deputy McDonald notes that she got full respect and opportunity to speak from this side of the House. I was not afforded that respect and courtesy from the other side of the House when I endeavoured to answer a while ago.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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You do not answer the question.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Fundamentally-----

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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An answer would be nice for a change.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The point I was making is that I have never before witnessed political parties trying to tell others what box they are in or what group they belong to.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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They chose the box themselves.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle, you made a ruling and the Government is challenging that ruling. Do not blame us, Taoiseach. The Ceann Comhairle made the ruling.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputies, resume your seats when the Ceann Comhairle is standing. We have spent hours. I have invested as much as 20 hours over the past months trying to come to a consensus and an agreement.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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There is not any-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Unfortunately, we have reached an impasse.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Because they did not want to reach a consensus.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I expect respect, Deputy, so that I can finish what I am saying.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Let the ruling stand.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Excuse me, Deputy, I am speaking. We have reached an impasse and when we reach an impasse, we then move to the mechanism that moves all those democratically elected from the impasse, which is the voting mechanism. We are now-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Did the Chief Whip mislead the Dáil when she sided with you, a Cheann Comhairle, with the acceptance of the Opposition? Could the Ceann Comhairle rule on that? Did the Chief Whip deliberately mislead the Dáil-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Deputy should resume his seat.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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-----when she stood up and made a promise that the Government would bring forward a proposal that would be acceptable to the Opposition?

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Deputy should resume his seat.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Perhaps you should make a judgment on that issue, a Cheann Comhairle.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputy Doherty should resume his seat. He knows the rulings of the House.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Make a ruling on that issue, a Cheann Comhairle. Did the Chief Whip deliberately mislead this Dáil?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is it the case that Deputy Doherty does not have respect for me or the Chair? Now it is becoming apparent that-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I ask Deputy Doherty to respect the Chair. It is not me; I am not concerned. However, I am the Ceann Comhairle and I am sitting in the Chair and I expect a level of respect to come from each and every Member-----

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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-----when I speak. The level of disruption to which we can go today is well documented. We are either going to continue with Leaders' Questions or we can move on. Deputies may not like the answers they are getting but I cannot give instructions on answers.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We are getting no answers.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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My function is to chair this Dáil and ensure that the House operates.

A Deputy:

And to be fair and impartial as well.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We are moving on with the business. I now move to Deputy Bacik.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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Once more, with today's motion, the Taoiseach is dragging us back to this absurd technical groups issue.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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Bombs are raining down in a genocidal bombardment on children in Gaza. The people of Ukraine are fighting for their country. Democracy is under threat across the globe - in Belarus, Hungary and Turkey. We see grim new milestones for global warming. The housing crisis is deepening here at home. Fears are growing about the impact of Trump's tariffs. These are the pressing issues that deserve all our attention. Instead, the Government insists on continuing to push through this proposed amendment to Standing Orders, which is a desperate distraction.

The Taoiseach seeks to confuse the issue. He talks about speaking rights, but we all know what is at issue here. This is a simple matter. You cannot be in government and in opposition at the same time.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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It is at precisely this time that we in this House need to stand firm and resolute in our defence of democratic values, and of our constitutional function as Members of Dáil Éireann.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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Hear, hear.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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Article 28.4.1° of our Constitution provides that: "The Government shall be responsible to Dáil Éireann." That is why our Standing Orders provide for Leaders' Questions. It is the set-piece exchange every week where we in opposition, as Opposition leaders, get to hold the Taoiseach and the Government to account. It matters for our communities that the lines are clear in a democracy and that we can assign responsibility when things go wrong. Since we took our seats in this Dáil, we sought accountability from the Taoiseach on many issues. For example, statements he and his Ministers made during the general election campaign, when they exaggerated how many houses would be built. We must hold the Government to account on those claims, and on so much more, on behalf of the people we represent.

There are massive delays in children seeking assessments of need. There are failures to provide school places for children with additional needs. There is a glaring absence of climate policies. It is our constitutional duty to represent our communities and hold the Government to account. That is why it matters when we see the Government's continued attempts to create a sham Opposition, a contrivance purely to placate the Lowry lobby.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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To describe Lowry's group as wolves in sheep's clothing would give them too much credit, but they are a very poor tribute act - a poor imitation of those of us who are genuinely in opposition and taking our constitutional duties seriously. The Taoiseach knows, as does everyone, that the manufactured, nonsensical "other Members' questions" device is really being introduced to give the Lowry lads and Deputy Toole special time to tell the Government how well it is doing. The Taoiseach knows it. Everyone in the country knows it. This is the group that has undertaken to support the Government in good times and bad. The Ceann Comhairle has ruled that they are not in opposition. Let us respect her ruling.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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Let us give up this farce.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank the Deputy.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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How can the Taoiseach continue to justify this?

You cannot be in government and in opposition at the same time.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Let us see what is being proposed. Private Members' business still lasts for 120 minutes.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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Why is it being proposed in the first place?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is no change to that. Sponsor time is still 40 minutes, no change.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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When you are in government, you are in government.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Sinn Féin's time remains exactly as it was in the last Dáil.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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That is not the issue.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What is interesting is that each other Opposition grouping gains time in this Dáil under this proposal as compared with the last time out.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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You are turning yourself inside out.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Very generous.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I can recall a time, when the Labour Party had a calamitous general election result, that we facilitated reducing the threshold to allow the Labour Party to have speaking rights. That is easily forgotten by the Deputy and her party members. There is no change in Ministers and Ministers of State responding to the Dáil. In other words, there is absolutely no change in terms of accountability of this Government to the Dáil in comparison with the last Dáil.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Bar yourself.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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A big change.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputies.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What is farcical is the extraordinary manufactured political row, which is wholly disproportionate to this issue-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputies.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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In other words, the change is very modest. It does not in any shape or form justify the level of dramatic action and feigned outrage that we are witnessing on the Opposition side.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You are not selling your soul very well in fairness.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree with Deputy that there are far more substantive and profound issues------

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Then deal with them.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----facing this country that we should now be getting on with, such as housing and disability services------

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is a political stroke and the Taoiseach knows it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and perhaps what will perhaps be the most significant and profound economic winds blowing in our direction that we have seen for quite some time.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government is pulling a stroke.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is what this Dáil and Oireachtas need to focus on. We also need to focus on the wars that are raging in Europe and the Middle East with appalling and savage loss of life and slaughter of people. Are we seriously suggesting that giving eight minutes per day-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not what it is about.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----to backbench TDs is such a profound change in the Standing Orders that it necessitates the feigned outrage that we are witnessing-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputies.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Deputy Bacik. Does the Taoiseach wish to continue?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I definitely do.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not your time yet, Deputy Bacik. The Taoiseach still has a minute left.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I make the point that the level of change here is so minuscule when you look at it.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Stop it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The 60 TDs will get one chance a year to participate in this forum and that is exciting everyone. There will be one opportunity for a backbench TD to question me, the Taoiseach of the day, and the Opposition is all up to high doh with feigned outrage.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is an affront to democracy.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will make one final point. When an election happens, there is a fundamental obligation to form a Government-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----which has been completely lost of sight of-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and the importance-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Keep shouting, keep shouting.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputies, all you are doing is running down the clock.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The point I was making was that Governments were formed with the support of three Independent TDs, no one at the time------

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are more than three.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are in government with you.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is noteworthy that people on the opposite side do not want to hear a response to the questions being asked.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We want answers.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a complete shoutdown. They shout down the debate because they do not want to hear explanations.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you, Taoiseach.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No Opposition TD ever lost any rights to this day. This has been proved by multiple senior counsel opinions at this stage under previous Standing Orders.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a political issue.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you, Taoiseach. Your is time up. I call Deputy Bacik to respond.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As we all know, the Ceann Comhairle ruled on 3 February that the Lowry grouping is not in opposition. Let us respect that ruling.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The only manufacturing going on is the Taoiseach seeking to manufacture a sham Opposition, pretending that this is about speaking rights for Government backbenchers. He knows it is not. Everyone in the country knows it is not because all Government backbenchers, including those in the Lowry group, have privileged access to Government Ministers and they already have speaking time. I feel sorry for Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael backbenchers. Very few of them have been out defending the indefensible on the airwaves because they know they have speaking time already. They know they have in Questions on Policy or Legislation and Taoiseach's Questions. The Government's proposal will make them lose out too. They will not be able to dominate Taoiseach's questions any longer, because he has used this row to give himself Wednesday afternoons off, slashing that slot to carve out time for the Lowry gang. This is the indefensible. It is manufacturing a sham Opposition. We all know what this is really about.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you, Deputy.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You acknowledged yourself-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you Deputy.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----that Michael Lowry is in government when you promised the public that he-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy, your time is up. Allow the Taoiseach to respond.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----would "not be in government to do any corruption", so what is this all about?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Bacik, thank you.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the hold that he and his group have on you?

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a sad day.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is what people want to know about this stroke.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy feigns sympathy for the Government backbenchers-----

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So do you.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Of course we do.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----but there is an issue around proportionality in terms of how the Dáil is structured. In recent times, from 2016 onwards when we changed the thresholds to allow smaller groups to be formed, there has been a wholly disproportionate platform for some representatives, such as when one Independent joins three or four other Independents. They have had far more speaking time than Government backbenchers have had over the last five years and that is going to change. This is an attempt to rebalance that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputies.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Then it has taken you nine years to stand up for your own backbenchers.

Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach is very selective.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not very selective

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You are.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy, with the greatest of respect, your party was very grateful for the fact we were sympathetic enough-----

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To clean up your mess.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----to accommodate you when you lost a whole range of seats.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have never been grateful to Fianna Fáil.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy. The Taoiseach has ten seconds left.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is running out of time all right.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not expect-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Maybe he will provide an answer in those ten seconds-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----that the democratic process operates like this-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----on what hold Deputy Lowry has on him.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and I do not think the public do either. Could you please allow it to continue?

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A Cheann Comhairle, the public do not want to see a stroke happening like the Government is attempting today.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Taoiseach, you have ten seconds or we can move on.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am fine.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You are fine. Deputy Cian O'Callaghan on Leaders' Questions.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Maybe Mr. Lowry has something to say about all this.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will he finally make a statement? Do you want to make a statement, Mr. Lowry? Silence from Deputy Lowry.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy, allow your colleague to have his time for Leaders' Questions.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Just on a point of order-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is not a point of order-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You have to hear him first.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Lowry said he wanted to make a statement. Does he want to make one now?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy, there is no point-----

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would he like to make a statement now? He said he was going to make a statement. He was beating his chest that he was going to make a statement. Where is Deputy Lowry's statement?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is no point of order-----

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can we have a statement from Deputy Lowry?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----when the Chair is standing. Deputy O'Callaghan, please.

Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Get your time back, Cian.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will I not get three minutes, a Cheann Comhairle? No. Okay.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is your friends' fault.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, it is your fault. It is your stroke.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is your friends' fault.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach's efforts to defend the indefensible are not working. Dáil rules are being reverse-engineered to guarantee one outcome, that is, that Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael will deliver on the deal they have made with Michael Lowry. That is what it all boils down to. The Taoiseach's backbenchers are well aware he would not be going to these extremes for them. The truth is the Government has caused chaos in this Dáil and delayed setting up committees to facilitate Michael Lowry and keep him happy. The public have a right to know what was in the deal with Michael Lowry. The Taoiseach should come clean on that. This is a shameless political stroke that would make even Bertie blush. There are clear lines of separation between Government and Opposition because we have different functions. That has always been recognised in Dáil procedures because it is fundamental to how this place operates. It is the job of Government TDs to support the Government and of Opposition TDs to hold the Government to account. Is this accountability what the Government is afraid of and so desperate to avoid?

In a way I get it. This Government has already made a disaster in terms of broken election promises. It spectacularly failed to deliver 40,000 homes it promised last year. It promised to prioritise enacting the occupied territories Bill but it has been put on the long finger. Government parties spent the election promising tax cuts and enormous spending increases even though we in the Social Democrats warned this was reckless behaviour and now the finance Minister has admitted those promised tax cuts are highly unlikely to ever materialise. The truth is Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael cannot be trusted.

After Fianna Fáil bankrupted the country and the troika took over in 2010 we were promised, "Never again". Reforms of Dáil procedure to strengthen Opposition oversight were introduced post crash. It is clear the Government has forgotten about the lessons of the past. Instead of strengthening accountability it wants to weaken it. Stroke politics and dodgy deals with Michael Lowry have taken precedence and Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael are reverting to type - arrogant complacency. Does the Taoiseach really think people voted for that? He made a pledge that any changes to Standing Orders would be done in agreement with the Opposition. It is clear he has no intention of honouring that.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Another broken promise.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Given this track record of duplicity, why should anyone in the Opposition or the public trust what he says?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The people voted in the last general election-----

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They did not vote for Michael Lowry.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and they clearly voted, whether you like it or not-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It seems the election result never sunk in with people on the opposite side.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No. False pretences.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You misled people-----

A Deputy:

A three-card trick.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and now you are pulling a stroke.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is just a reality. Therefore, it fell to this side of the House-----

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We did not see Micheal Lowry in the manifesto.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You misled people.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----to form a government.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You are trying to control-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael did not have the numbers.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please. The Taoiseach is addressing Deputy O'Callaghan.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You were not really interested in going into government.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Come on.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Give us a break.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You had no interest at all. You had none. Your manifesto was so threadbare in any detail that it was no wonder.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Well yours was a pack of lies.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Michael Lowry's manifesto. What was that about?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Labour Party did not want to go into government------

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputies.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Labour Party did not want to go into government because it was watching you. You are both watching each other. You are both nervous of each other, so therefore you did not come forward.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sinn Féin did not have the numbers to form a government-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach is being asked a very specific set of questions. He could answer them.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and Independent Ireland had some issues that we did not find agreement with but at least its members came in and engaged with us in a substantive way. The Regional Independent Group said they wanted to support and facilitate the formation of a government.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As you are talking about it, what was the deal?

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What was the deal?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not new, by the way. That is not new.

A Deputy:

Exactly, they are in government.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This has been a feature of our fragmented system.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Our electoral system has in recent times and will in the future create a fragmented result. The danger in what the Opposition is saying is-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is called deflection.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Say after the next general election in five years' time, a potential government is short three of four TDs. Why would three or four Independent TDs volunteer to facilitate the formation of a government?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why would they?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Exactly. Answer that question.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why would they do that if it meant-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputies.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----that the rest of the Opposition said, "We are going to deny you your rights as TDs if you dare facilitate and support the Government". Looking at it from my perspective-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You are making it worse the longer you are on your feet.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and from a constitutional perspective, it is quite an extraordinary thing you are trying to do here which will actually-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Protect democracy.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hold you to your word is what he is trying to get you to do.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----undermine any potential for the formation of a government into the future.

Deputies:

Nonsense.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You are now basically saying that no Independent in the future-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach has been asked some very specific questions and he is refusing to answer them.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You are not a leader yet, Deputy.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You have been asked very specific questions here Taoiseach. We deserve an answer. Will you respect the decision of the Ceann Comhairle?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy, I am standing.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Taoiseach respect the decision of the Ceann Comhairle?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy, I am standing.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Taoiseach respect the decision of the Ceann Comhairle?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Whether you like what is being said or not, you will have respect for the position of the Ceann Comhairle. When the Ceann Comhairle stands, you sit-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And I am sitting-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and it does not matter who you are.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach should have respect for the Ceann Comhairle.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have asked you to sit. I am speaking, Deputy.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And I can hear you.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not wish to spell respect. We are all adults. We are well aware of what we-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There has to be respect for the democratic process-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Excuse me, Deputy.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are asking for the Taoiseach to respect the decision the Ceann Comhairle made.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is very apparent-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are asking that the Taoiseach respect the decision that he is riding roughshod over.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----here today now that nobody is interested in hearing answers.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We want answers.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We would love to hear an answer.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach is not interested in giving us answers.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Afford him the respect to at least have the answer listened to.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is an interpretation, Ceann Comhairle.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We would love answers.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is a pantomime with no answers.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is using up Deputy O'Callaghan's time. Does the Deputy wish to make his minute heard? His Opposition colleagues clearly do not.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, we do.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We do.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach is right. This is quite extraordinary-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did not get a chance to finish what I was saying.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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Yes, but in more than 100 years of this Dáil, never ever in the weekly schedule has there a time slot created where 100% of the time is allocated to the Government. Does the Taoiseach not see something fundamentally wrong-----

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Leader's Questions.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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-----with a time slot being created where Government TDs ask the Taoiseach questions without any input from the Opposition? Can the Taoiseach tell me of any parliament in the world where there is a time slot where 100% of it-----

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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North Korea.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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-----is for government backbenchers to ask government leaders questions with no time allocated to the opposition? That does not exist. Therefore, this is quite extraordinary and it should not be done. Will he tell me one place in the world where this happens?

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not happening here.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Westminster.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, it does not.

Ken O'Flynn (Cork North-Central, Independent Ireland Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do you want to go back there?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please, Deputies.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputies, I am making the point in answer to the question - in fairness the Deputy has asked questions and I think I should be allowed the right to answer but other Deputies do not want me to because they do not like the answer.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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Want to try again?

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How is that going now?

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hold the Government to account.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What I would say to you is this; in the future, for example, there could be three or four TDs who could facilitate the formation of a Government. What the Deputy is now saying is that Independent TDs in the future attempting to facilitate the formation of a Government will have their rights diminished. That is the essence of the Opposition proposal.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Deputy deserves an answer.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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He has had four chances and he still has not answered the question.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Take Deputies McGrath and Nolan, for example, they are part of this group. They have voted against the Government three or four times already but the Deputy and others are taking it upon themselves to tell them they must be corralled in a certain part of the Dáil and can only be allowed to do A, B and C. That is unconstitutional. You have no right to do that. You have absolutely no right to do that and it is wrong.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A Cheann Comhairle, is he doing this for his own backbenchers or is he doing it for Deputy McGrath? We need clarity on that issue now. Who is the Taoiseach actually fighting for now?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sit down, Deputy. You are making a show of yourself; sit down. I thank the Taoiseach, his time is up. I call Deputy Collins.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Time is definitely up.

Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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If we go ahead today with Government proposals on giving extra time for Government-backing TDs in Opposition time, it shows how far this Government is capable of going in eroding the democracy of the island of Ireland.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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Our general election took place on 29 November 2024, and for a couple of months a Government had to be put together. On 22 January, the Dáil sat and for the first time was forced to call off Dáil proceedings so an agreement could be made to bring this speaking row to an end. All of this time we the Opposition were united on one front: that Deputy Lowry's group had a right to speaking time in this Dáil but not on Opposition time.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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Every effort by the Government since has been to do everything but that. On the morning of 23 January, the Taoiseach and Tánaiste met with us leaders to end this row and let the Dáil get back to the business it had to do - elect the Taoiseach, set up committees - and we all agreed we would work together to create a solution on this hugely important issue for the country.

Less than an hour later, the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, read a statement into the Dáil record. It was agreed by the Taoiseach, Tánaiste and all the Opposition that, "the Government will today bring forward a motion to establish the Committee on Standing Orders and Dáil Reform...and to work to secure agreement, as soon as possible and acceptable to Government and Opposition, as regards formation of technical groups." The Business Committee met that day and agreed we would all put forward submissions on a way forward. Again, the Opposition was clear. We never denied any speaking times to Michael Lowry's group of six TDs but this would be specifically during Government speaking time slots, not Opposition-----

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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-----as they have clearly agreed to support this Government one way or another, which is their own prerogative I may add. The next scheduled meeting of the Dáil reform committee was scheduled for 26 February. At this meeting came the bombshell from the Government Chief Whip, Deputy Mary Butler, that the previous verbal agreement given by the Taoiseach and Tánaiste and read out by the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, was now being reneged on------

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Shameful.

Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

------and a railroading of democracy was going ahead. When summing up today, the Taoiseach will say we had enough time to try to get an agreement from the Opposition but it would not agree. Since the day he was elected, however, we have only had two meetings of the Dáil reform committee to try to resolve this issue in 28 days. I know because I attended these meetings. Is the Taoiseach a man of his word or not? Does he agree with me that this was the sequence of events? Am I right in saying if he really wanted to bring this to a fair and honest end, he would have asked his Chief Whip to meet every day to resolve the issue and not two meetings - one to iron out the procedures for the next meeting and the next to railroad through, making a mockery of this House and its procedures?

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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We have written to the Taoiseach numerous times to try to resolve this issue and to make sure this dark day for democracy would not happen but he has chosen to ignore it. Will the Taoiseach at this late stage, sit down with the Opposition leaders and thrash out an agreement to bring this sorry episode to an end?

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He will only deal at Dáil times.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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End of stroke politics.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Such hyperbole is really stretching it. The bottom line is this-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

End of stroke politics.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does your word mean anything?

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Obviously not.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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------that three of the Opposition parties gain more time in terms of holding the Government to account. That is the factual position, as a result of 20 hours of discussions and so forth between the Chief Whip and the Whips of the other parties and also in terms of the committee on Dáil reform. That is the mechanism we have established in terms of the committee on Dáil Reform.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deflection again.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Allow a debate here.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I say to the Deputy, from his perspective he is not losing any time.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are losing time at the Order of Business and Taoiseach's Questions.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You are not compared to the last Dáil, you are actually gaining time and that is the bottom line here.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputies will have their chance. This is Deputy Collins's question.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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This was raised earlier. If you compare Dáil Éireann to any other parliament in Europe, you will find the Opposition has more time than any other Opposition in any other parliament across Europe. Certainly in terms of Prime Ministers across Europe, no Prime Minister is in parliament more than the Irish Taoiseach is in Dáil Éireann.

This can be checked out and looked at in terms of other parliaments across Europe. This proposal is proportionate because it is endeavouring to give backbench TDs of the Government parties and Independent TDs an opportunity-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----with eight minutes on a Tuesday or on a Wednesday. All this row, about the dark days of Irish democracy, is about eight minutes extra on a Tuesday and eight minutes extra on a Wednesday-----

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is stroke politics.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputies, please.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This apparently means we are on the brink of a terrible sort of negativity and so on.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputies, please.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Over the past ten years, there has been a consistent, incremental increase in time allocated to smaller groups within the Dáil and to Independents within the Dáil. There is a group on the far left that has about three or four Members with more speaking rights than other with 40 TDs or more.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That has been the reality over the past ten years.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There needs to be a degree of rebalancing.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is Deputy Lowry a Government TD?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Backbench Deputies need the opportunity to ask questions.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputies, please.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is no big deal in that. It does not in any way-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The big demand from members of the Opposition at the beginning, when we met with them, was not to lose any time. They have not lost any time.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is Stockholm syndrome.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Opposition groups have actually gained time.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is Deputy Collins's time.

Robert O'Donoghue (Dublin Fingal West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

All this just for Deputy Michael Lowry.

A Deputy:

It is a difference of 25 hours.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is interesting. I made a fundamental point. When a general election happens, and the Deputy knows this because they have engaged with us at different times after different elections, Governments have to be formed.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is the realpolitik of forming a government. Governments have to be formed.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Some people have no interest in forming a government. That is fair enough but others do. The programme for Government-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputies, please.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The programme for Government is the document that binds the people who are going to support the Government together. Underlying all of this, and the Deputy said we could have brought this to an end, I actually do not believe the Opposition wants to bring this to an end.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Opposition is enjoying it a bit for its own electoral purposes. However, I want to make this point-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The time is up. I thank the Taoiseach. I call on Deputy Collins to respond.

Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Ceann Comhairle. It looks like, no matter what we say here, the Government is going to railroad these changes through. It is very clear to the good, honest and hard-working people of this country that this is what the Taoiseach was going to do anyway. He has to be straight and honest. What is the deal he has done with Deputy Michael Lowry that has him spellbound? We know the deal has cost more than €5 million already with extra super junior Ministers, extra junior Ministers and extra payments for them alone over five years. Is it going to cost the honest and hard-working taxpayer €50 million? Is it going to cost €100 million, €200 million or above?

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We need to know. The taxpayer needs to know. The ordinary man and woman who cannot afford to pay weekly bills need to know here and now. They know it is a sleazy deal that taxpayers must pay heavily for. On top of that, the Taoiseach wants them to ask planted questions in this House to make a mockery of the Irish people in Dáil Éireann.

I ask the Taoiseach to come clean on the deal that might yet crumble around him and to pull back from the mockery of the Irish people who are not with him on this one. Will he admit he cut 45 minutes of Taoiseach's Questions? Will he admit he cut the Order of Business time? Will he admit he cut Private Members' business time for our party by 20% on Wednesdays and Thursdays? This Lowry deal has cost us enough financially.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Deputy Collins.

Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do not let it cost us our democracy also.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy cannot be serious. He talks about it costing our democracy. Eight minutes on a Tuesday and our democracy is gone.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please, Deputies.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the Taoiseach familiar with democracy?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Come on; it is farcical. However, in a more serious vein-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Deputy resume his seat? This is Deputy Collins's time.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is really behind this, and it is very clear, is that the Opposition-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a fundamental issue here-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The fundamental issue here is the lack of respect for the Chair. The salient ruling-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputies are making an absolute holy show of themselves. I am loath to say it again but will the Deputy resume his seat?

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry, Ceann Comhairle-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

All Deputies, resume your seats.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----I will not resume my seat.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy, out of respect------

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is at stake here is a fundamental subversion of our rights to hold the Government to account. It is a fundamental question.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry, Deputy, while you may not have respect for me-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They need to convey why they are breaking their word to the Opposition. They told us on the day, on the floor here. You made the commitment it would be an agreement.

Naoise Ó Cearúil (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We can hear you okay.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Tell us now why you are breaking your word. What did that guy do to you in between?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy, resume your seat.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You said there would be agreement so stand up and say it. You can laugh all you want, Michéal, but it is not funny. It is not funny what you are doing.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You might laugh, Taoiseach, but you are not in the White House now. Get up.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You are making-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is shocking what you are doing. It has never, ever happened, the stunt that you are trying to pull here.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

For the public watching, you are making a holy-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not going to happen.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One of your colleagues mentioned misogyny.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Misogyny is what was mentioned earlier.

A Deputy:

This is a disgrace. Unbelievable.

A Deputy:

This is a disgrace from the Government who are not listening to the Opposition and not listening to their own backbenchers. This is wrong. It is a disgrace.

A Deputy:

Answer the question honestly. Give us an honest answer.

A Deputy:

You have not answered the question. Not honest, but misleading.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is an absolute disgrace. You are making a holy show of yourselves for the world to see.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is very clear you have no respect for the Chair-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source