Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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115. To ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality if he has any concerns about the fact that the latest intake of trainee gardaí are not fully vetted. [12760/25]

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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As the Minister is aware, the Garda Commissioner informed his Department last November that full vetting would no longer take place prior to trainees entering the college at Templemore. This sent shock waves across many organisations, including the GRA and other representative bodies, because the Garda do the vetting. If gardaí will not be fully vetted before they enter Templemore, how can standards be maintained?

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for his question and for his interest in this important area. The question of Garda vetting of individuals who go on to become members of An Garda Síochána is an important issue. It is not like ordinary vetting where somebody wants to become a football coach or is involved with children because it is much more thorough. I am informed by the Commissioner that vetting of candidates is conducted by the Garda National Vetting Bureau in a centralised unit and that it is the most stringent vetting in respect of any role in the State.

The Deputy is correct to state that there has been a change in how the vetting has occurred, but it is not correct to state that people enter Templemore unvetted. I have been informed that there are three stages to the vetting process. Before somebody enters Templemore, stage 1 of the vetting has been completed. There are then stages 2 and 3, which are now being done during the course of the individual's presence within Templemore. The reason we did that is we wanted to speed up the process of recruiting members to An Garda Síochána. I am frequently asked questions about this and, before I was a Minister, I said that we needed to do more to speed up the process of recruitment.

One of the mechanisms by which recruitment was being slowed down was that the vetting process was taking too long. Instead, what will happen is people will be vetted at stage 1, they will go into Templemore, and stages 2 and 3 will be completed while they are at Templemore. The effect of that has been that, on 10 March, 201 trainee gardaí started in Templemore. When they are attested in December this year and when they are then out on the streets, they will have been vetted to the exact same extent as any member of An Garda Síochána who was vetted under the old system. This will not result in a situation where gardaí are patrolling the streets as attested members who have not been thoroughly vetted.

I know the Deputy's concern but it is not correct - this is my respectful response - to say that people are entering unvetted. They are vetted. It is just that the process of vetting is not completed until they are fully attested.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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This is Comical Ali stuff. The Garda Síochána press office has stated: "... the highest standards for all ... Gardaí will be maintained. Vetting standards for Garda trainees remain the same." They do not remain the same. They are different. Similar to the housing statistics, this was done as a political ploy in order to ensure numbers got bumped up and trainees were taken in last December, which I pointed out last year. It is not the same standard. The Minister needs to guarantee on the floor of the House that people are not currently training in Templemore who should not be. Gardaí and their representative bodies, who are very concerned about standards not being maintained, have come to me from across the country on this.

We also have to think about the people who are training and working with trainees at Templemore. The people who enter Templemore need to be vetted to the same standard as they always have been. At the end of the day, the Garda does the vetting. If it cannot maintain those standards, what hope have we regarding everyone else? I have asked this question of every Department and agency throughout the country. Not one has come back to me and said that it is changing its vetting standards, but An Garda Síochána can? The public is not buying this. People are worried about it.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The objective is to ensure that, once people become attested members of An Garda Síochána, they will have been fully vetted. That will continue the way it did previously.

We need to look at the three stages of it. The first stage, which is done before anyone enters Templemore, requires all candidates on their applications to become trainees to complete what is known as a form B. This document is very extensive and involves requesting detailed personal information from candidates, such as details on any time they lived abroad and information on all extended family members, including family who live abroad and may have little or no interaction with the candidate. These checks can take the timelines for completion outside the control of both the candidate and the vetting bureau. That is the first stage in respect of vetting.

The second and third stages are done while the candidate is in Templemore. The second stage involves security checks and local vetting, which involves a short interview conducted by a sergeant or someone of higher rank in the candidate's local station. Stage 3 involves the Garda National Vetting Bureau making a final decision under the authority of the Commissioner. Once an attested garda goes out on the street, he or she will have been vetted to the same extent as previously.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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What the Minister said is simply not factually correct. Garda trainees are going into Templemore who have not been vetted to the standard required. That is the bottom line. This was done last November.

The Minister is also failing to acknowledge the fact that unattested trainees are often training under supervision but are not fully vetted. The Minister knows that as part of their course they are out during certain phases and are not fully vetted. Trainee gardaí who are not fully vetted are out on patrol throughout the country. That is a fact. The Minister cannot deny that in the House. Gardaí of various ranks all over the country are disgusted at this and believe it is totally wrong.

The Department also fails to acknowledge this. Trainee gardaí are coming in who are not fully vetted and, in the end, they are told they cannot become gardaí. How much is that costing the State? The Department cannot answer that question, which I have asked. It is not able to answer how much it costs to train a garda in this country. If that is all accumulated, it is obviously a loss to the taxpayer. These people have access to a lot of information, training, uniforms, guns and arms. Many of them are very fine people, and I represent the constituency that includes Templemore, but they need to be fully vetted. If people need be fully vetted for Tusla, the HEA, education and everything in healthcare, they surely, in the name of God, need to be fully vetted for An Garda Síochána before they enter Templemore.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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They will be fully vetted by the time they are gardaí.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Not when they enter.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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What we are talking about, so people are aware-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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They can be on the streets unvetted.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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-----is that part of the vetting process happens during the training process. The reason that is done is we are trying to increase the numbers going into An Garda Síochána.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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So, standards drop.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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We have a recruitment crisis.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Standards drop.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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They do not drop.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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They do.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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What the public is concerned about is the quality-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Give a guarantee.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Deputy let me answer the question? What the public is concerned about is the quality of the garda on the street. Fortunately, the quality of the gardaí on the street in this country is excellent. They are fully vetted, more than any other official in the public service. They are vetted thoroughly. What is happening is we are changing the sequencing of the process. The reason we are doing that is to try to speed it up. Part of the problem is the fact that many people have spent time abroad. They have been in Australia and other parts of the world. Garda management have to find out about them when they have been away for two or three years. That takes time.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Trainee-----

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Let me finish the answer. Rather than saying to those individuals that they cannot start at Templemore until we have thoroughly got information about them, we are letting them start and then getting the information. We are getting fully vetted gardaí at the end of the process.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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They are on the streets unvetted.