Dáil debates

Wednesday, 19 March 2025

Ceisteanna - Questions

Cabinet Committees

4:10 pm

Photo of Shane MoynihanShane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on climate action, environment and energy will meet next. [9171/25]

Photo of Shay BrennanShay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on climate action, environment and energy will meet next. [9482/25]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on climate action, environment and energy will next meet. [9489/25]

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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4. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on climate action, environment and energy will next meet. [9492/25]

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on climate action, environment and energy will next meet. [9457/25]

Photo of Malcolm ByrneMalcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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6. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on climate action, environment and energy will meet next. [10805/25]

Photo of Naoise Ó CearúilNaoise Ó Cearúil (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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7. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on climate action, environment and energy will next meet. [10807/25]

Photo of Ruairí Ó MurchúRuairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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8. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on climate action, environment and energy will next meet. [12369/25]

Photo of Michael CahillMichael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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9. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on climate action, environment and energy will next meet. [12409/25]

Photo of Rose Conway-WalshRose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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10. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on climate action, environment and energy will next meet. [12468/25]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 10, inclusive, together.

Last month the Government established the Cabinet committee on climate action, environment and energy to oversee implementation of programme for Government commitments in relation to the environment, climate action, energy and emergency planning.

The programme for Government sets out a strong framework for climate action and continues to place it at the heart of the work of all Departments. It commits to a continuation of the publication of annual updates to the climate action plan and quarterly progress reports focusing on a smaller number of strategic and high-impact actions across all sectors, as well as strengthening the climate action delivery board and governance structures. In addition, it sets out specific provisions in areas such as energy, agriculture, the built environment, transport, the circular economy, the environment and adaptation.

EPA figures confirm that greenhouse gas emissions are going in the right direction, showing overall reductions for the past three years. However, we know we have to go further, taking climate action faster and at scale, particularly over the coming five years as we approach 2030.

Membership of the Cabinet committee will comprise the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Defence and the Ministers for Finance, Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform, the Environment, Climate and Communications and Transport, Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Housing, Local Government and Heritage and Enterprise, Trade and Employment. It will meet quarterly and its next meeting will take place on 7 April.

Photo of Paul LawlessPaul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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Storm Éowyn left almost 1 million people without power and water, many for more than two weeks. In response, the Government introduced a humanitarian assistance scheme. The scheme was designed to meet the need for food, clothing and personal items but I have received hundreds of emails and calls to my constituency office from constituents who have received rejection letters. These letters clearly state that the scheme does not cover food, clothing or personal items, the very items that it was explicitly stated would be covered by it. The goalposts keep moving and the most recent moving of the goalposts is the deadline. It appears that the deadline has passed and the scheme has ended, despite the fact that people had no idea this was happening. Can the Taoiseach provide clarity on this? There seems to be a direct contradiction between the rejection letters and what the scheme set out to cover.

Photo of Shane MoynihanShane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Taoiseach as ucht an fhreagra i leith cúrsaí fuinnimh agus an coiste comhordaithe a bheidh ag casadh le chéile. Obviously, one of the items that has been raised by the Draghi report on competitiveness is the need for the EU and Ireland to maintain a focus on competitiveness. Does the Taoiseach agree that pursuing an energy policy that prioritises an abundance and an even more plentiful supply and that takes advantage of our uniquely available national assets and our geographic location, will drive that agenda forward, providing a more plentiful and abundant energy supply? As part of that, hopefully the Cabinet committee on energy will play a proactive role in driving forward that plentiful energy supply and removing any planning blockages that exist so that we can fully exploit the potential we have for maximising our renewable energy supply in this country. This is key not only to garnering and protecting our competitiveness but is also fundamental to providing a cheaper energy supply that, in turn, will deliver better living standards for our people. Part of that is equipping the planning system to make sure it has the critical skills in place to ensure there are no logjams where we do want to exploit a more plentiful energy supply. The Government must take a proactive role to make sure that micro-level considerations are not necessarily trumped by the macro-level objectives that we need to have to achieve that more abundant supply.

Photo of Shay BrennanShay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
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Ireland has one of the best offshore wind resources in Europe, yet progress in developing the sector has been slow due to regulatory hurdles, infrastructural challenges and delays in project approvals. Given the urgent need to decarbonise our energy system and meet our 2030 climate targets, what specific actions is the Government taking to streamline the planning process, attract investment and ensure that Ireland becomes a leader in offshore wind energy?

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Central Bank in its latest quarterly report issued another damning indictment of the catastrophic failure of Government housing policy. One aspect of it that relates to this subcommittee is the fact that deficits in water infrastructure are now a major impediment to delivering the volume of housing necessary to address the housing crisis. I wonder if there is any joined-up thinking going on in terms of the enormous volume of water usage by data centres and the proliferation of such centres.

We already know they use up 20% of our electricity, and they are driving up energy costs for ordinary householders, but what about water usage? In Clonee, Meta's data centre, which is only one data centre, uses 2.5 million litres of water per day. This is the same volume of water usage as the entire city of Athlone with 21,000 people. We have 82 data centres in this country with 18 more on the way. Do the maths. If the lack of water is now a major impediment to putting roofs over the heads of people affected by the housing crisis, how on earth are we continuing to allow data centres, which are sucking up vast amounts of the inadequate water resources available to us to make a profit for a tiny number of companies? Is the Taoiseach looking at their water usage and the extent to which it is now an obstacle to us having the water necessary to build the homes we need to address the housing crisis?

4:20 pm

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Does the Taoiseach accept that since his return to office he has been effectively ripping up the climate Act? He has been greenlighting limitless expansion of data centres and AI powered by fossil fuels. When he was in the US, he gave out about the demonisation of data centres. He rescinded the Government policy statement against fracked gas. Earlier he said we cannot object to fracked gas coming in. The Government has approved a so-called State-led LNG storage terminal. The Taoiseach has welcomed the granting of planning permission for a fracked gas power plant as part of a commercial LNG terminal in Kerry. The so-called State-led LNG terminal, which is supposed to be an emergency reserve, is in fact to supply 95% of domestic gas usage with filthy US fracked gas. It is the most polluting fossil fuel on earth, which activists have fought so hard to ban only for the Taoiseach to try to smuggle it in the back door with the dirty deals with Trump. How can the Taoiseach justify imposing the cost of this onto ordinary people? What will be the impact? How much will they have to pay for this rip-off fracked gas and LNG terminal?

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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The latest warning today from the World Meteorological Organization is stark. We know that human-induced climate change has reached new extremes and some consequences are, sadly, now irreversible. The Government is simply not being proactive enough to meet our essential targets for emission reductions. On "Morning Ireland" today, Peter Thorne, chair of the Climate Change Advisory Council, expressed frustration, stating he does not even know whether the Government is listening. Yesterday An Bord Pleanála granted permission to Shannon LNG for a commercial power plant in the Shannon estuary. This development flies in the face of any sensible or responsible climate policy aimed at addressing climate change. Our climate representative, Deputy Ciarán Ahern, has outlined his strong opposition and our party's opposition to this highly polluting power plant and to the importation of fracked gas. We call on the Taoiseach and the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, to intervene to stop this going ahead and, instead, to develop State-backed offshore and renewable energy generation capacity. This is what we need. The Taoiseach spoke about the demonisation of data centres but looking at the proliferation of data centres, and the enormous usage of electricity constituted by data centres, which use more than 20% of our electricity, we have to take a more responsible approach to meeting our climate targets and to ensuring that climate policy really does run through all Government decisions, as the Taoiseach said it should.

Photo of Naoise Ó CearúilNaoise Ó Cearúil (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Given the recent devastation, which was widely reported and debated in the House, caused by Storm Éowyn, which resulted in widespread power outages and damage amounting to hundreds of millions of euros, the Climate Change Advisory Council has urged immediate action to prepare for future extreme weather events. It recommends establishing a national climate damage register to track the economic, social and environmental impacts of such storms. Will the Taoiseach consider establishing such a register? When will the Cabinet committee on climate action, environment and energy next sit? I know the Taoiseach is eager, as is this side of the House, for the committees to get up and running but the Opposition has been holding on. We need to get on with the business of the House and the business of Parliament.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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No, that is not true.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Let us do it now.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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The Opposition is not obstructing.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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We called for it.

Photo of Michael CahillMichael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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After years of campaigning, yesterday was a fantastic day for Kerry and Ireland, and especially for north Kerry, with the granting of planning permission by An Bord Pleanála to Shannon LNG for a 600 MW power plant on the Tarbert-Ballylongford land bank. It will create more than 1,000 jobs during construction and more than 100 permanent jobs thereafter. This decision is fully consistent with the climate action plan and will be a lifeline and game-changer for the north Kerry region, similar to the south Kerry greenway in the southern part of the county. With the completion of the security of supply review two weeks ago, will the Government confirm there is no policy objection to a private sector gas terminal? Will the Taoiseach also confirm that the Government fully supports the project, which I believe is the correct way forward for Ireland, especially during the circumstances that prevail in eastern Europe?

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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As a Member who fully appreciates the need for us all to drive, and drive enthusiastically, the development of the renewable energy sector, I am very conscious that the concentration in recent years has been on the offshore energy sector. It would be beneficial to all of us to have a clearer understanding of the timescales involved in the development of this sector. We have spoken about being able to become net exporters of energy. There are those in the sector who tell me this is a very long way away. While all of this is happening, we are seeing throughout the country an increase in the number of biogas plants being developed. They are very positive when they are happening at farm level but when they begin to take on an industrial-scale size, they pose some practical difficulties in some areas and we do not appear to have a national strategy to deal with them. The question of battery energy storage systems is also problematic, not least because in this country we do not appear to have the technology to deal with fires that might occur in situations where large-scale battery energy storage systems have been developed. When will something be done by way of a strategy in this regard?

Photo of Matt CarthyMatt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We know, regrettably, more severe weather events will hit our country in the time ahead and how the State responds to them, particularly in terms of how it supports people who are impacted, will be very important. During and immediately after Storm Éowyn, Ministers, including the Taoiseach, promised those people who were financially impacted and who were suffering as a result would be supported, and they were continuously pointed towards the humanitarian assistance scheme. I estimate that in recent days tens of thousands of people, if not more, have received rejection letters to their urgent appeals to the Government for support after the impact of Storm Éowyn on their families as a result of the power outages, in particular in respect of the need to discard frozen food. The Department now tells us that frozen food it is not an acceptable compensatory item, even though it is probably the single greatest expense that many families endured. Will the Taoiseach intervene with the Department of Social Protection and ensure those people financially impacted as a result of the fact that they had to discard food from fridges or freezers will be compensated in some small way?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Quite a number of Deputies have asked questions. With regard to the broader picture, the humanitarian assistance scheme has not closed yet. This is my understanding. I think it has been extended. I spoke to the Minister this morning about it and I will clarify it. This is the position as I understand it. The Minister is evaluating the applications that come in.

The existing scheme is catered for in regulation, so it is not moving or shifting the goalposts. In the programme for Government, we identified the need for a more comprehensive bespoke scheme to deal with events of the nature of Storm Éowyn.

I agree fully with Deputy Moynihan regarding energy. For the information of all Deputies, the agenda is to get to 80% of electricity generation coming from renewables by 2030. That objective has not changed. The suggestion from Deputies Moynihan, Bacik, Murphy and Boyd Barrett is that we have torn up the climate Act. We have not. That is a false assertion. However, Deputy Moynihan's point is very valid. If I listen to others in the House, they are saying, essentially, that we are in goodbye-to-the-economy territory.

When you go to the US and other places, you meet people like those at Hanley Energy, for example. That company's technology is in every data centre in the world. It employs 800 people, including 400 in America and 400 here. Its technology is all about reducing and about doing everything possible to moderate the energy output of data centres and so on. In the context of the AI revolution, we have, essentially, had a moratorium on data centres for the past three or four years. If the Deputies opposite are suggesting that we extend that moratorium for another five years, we will have a real problem with our economy.

4:30 pm

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Some moratorium.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputies Bacik and Murphy and other Deputies should start thinking very quickly now about how they see the economy evolving. They should dispense with all the sound bites and get down to the substance of should happen. Do we think we can just park ourselves at the side of the road while this massive, profound change is occurring in technology and then just pick it all up again in five or six years' time? We will not be able to do that.

We have a huge challenge in the context of competitiveness. How do we match the AI revolution and the extraordinary energy it consumes with the challenges we face between now and 2030? On Deputy Brennan's point, two auctions in respect of wind energy have been successful, notwithstanding the changes. The previous Government had to set up the Maritime Area Regulatory Authority, MARA, and entirely new infrastructure to deal with offshore wind energy and maritime planning. It needs to move fast. As stated, two auctions were held. There is a very good chance offshore wind farms will be in place, and hopefully in production, by 2030 or 2031. We do not need any objections to those because wind is the only option for Ireland in the context of the existential climate change that we face. There will, however, be a need for a transition fuel, and that transition fuel will be gas. There is no point in pretending otherwise; it will be needed. We need reality to come through.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Gas is worse than coal.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The debate in here is just miles away from reality.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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The Taoiseach is miles away from the science.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is no attempt at all to try to deal with the interdependent issues and the challenges that come with them. People are just demonising data centres. If you demonise data centres, every day-to-day usage of mobile phones or whatever will come to naught. That is the reality.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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No, it is not.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is fundamentally the reality. In my view, the Deputy is fundamentally wrong in what he is putting forward.

Deputy Brennan referred to regulatory hurdles and so on. We are doing everything possible through MARA to get offshore wind through as quickly we possibly can. That will mean transposition of more EU directives. There is a clause in the EU directive to deal with matters when all else fails. This is the overriding public interest clause, and it should be invoked in respect of offshore wind generation because the latter is the most fundamental way in which this country can deal with climate and renewables.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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There are seven wind turbines.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Solar energy is moving fast in Ireland and can progress even further. A fair point was made by Deputy Ó Fearghaíl in respect of battery storage. In the midlands some development on that front has been made by Bord na Móna. Other countries are using battery storage. If you look at Texas, it is not all about oil there. The relevant authorities in Texas use wind, nuclear, battery storage and solar.

Photo of Paul GogartyPaul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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Do not forget to wave, Taoiseach.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Wind is our key ingredient.

On the point raised by Deputy Bacik, when the independent planning board, An Bord Pleanála, makes a decision, if the Government even dared intervened in a decision that would suit the Deputy and the outcome of which she would appreciate, she would cry foul.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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I said it this week.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am stunned by what has happened two or three times today. An Bord Pleanála's decision in respect of north Kerry was referenced and then very quickly conflated as if the Government did it. That is the impression the Deputy is giving.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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The Taoiseach welcomed it.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is the impression all of you have given.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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You welcomed it.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputies are giving the impression that an independent board, An Bord Pleanála, made a decision as if it was Government policy. That is a false assertion to confuse people and cloud matters. All the Deputies want to do is make the assertion that the Government is rowing back on climate. That is all they want to do, and they will use any instrument to do it.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Do not row back on it then.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is a fundamentally dishonest political position to adopt. The Deputies either agree with the independence of An Bord Pleanála or they do not, I am now being asked to intervene in An Bord Pleanála.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Does the Taoiseach welcome the decision?

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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Intervene now.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have been asked to intervene now in An Bord Pleanála by Deputy Bacik.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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After the decision has been made.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but intervene in what way?

(Interruptions).

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The next batch of questions-----

Photo of Matt CarthyMatt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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On the frozen foods, under the humanitarian assistance scheme-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is what is wrong with the country. We do not accept the independent bodies that are established. We should because otherwise there will be judicial reviews.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Taoiseach-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Then we ask why we cannot deliver infrastructure and get things moving in the country. It is because the Deputies are pandering all the time-----

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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Excuse me. We are not pandering-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and are not really interested in economic development. I agree with Deputy-----

Photo of Matt CarthyMatt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Taoiseach intervene in respect of frozen foods under the humanitarian assistance scheme?

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Naoise Ó Cearúil.

Photo of Naoise Ó CearúilNaoise Ó Cearúil (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas, a Leas Cheann-Comhairle.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Do I answer first?

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but I wanted to-----

Photo of Matt CarthyMatt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Taoiseach take the opportunity to answer in respect of the humanitarian assistance scheme and frozen food?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have run out of time. I answered Deputy Lawless; I dealt with that. The Deputy should have come in early. He would have been the first man if he came in earlier but he was late.

Photo of Matt CarthyMatt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I was not on the list. I came in when I came in.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There was no Sinn Féin representative at the beginning of this. The Deputy shouts and roars about it all the time, and his leader is not here.