Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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8. To ask the Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht the precise date on which his Department was first made aware of problems with the IT project of the Arts Council; if he is satisfied with the decision by his Department’s officials not to inform the then Minister or Secretary General of the problems and the associated financial loss of almost €7 million; who is being held responsible for this waste; and what the consequences, if any, will be. [10183/25]

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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This question relates to the Arts Council and the IT project. I am trying to find out, once and for all, when the Department was informed of problems with it, who is being held responsible and what the consequences are. This comes on foot of several questions I posed to the Minister previously to which I never received a full answer.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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The Arts Council business transformation project has cost almost €7 million and resulted in a significant loss to the Exchequer. This loss has highlighted governance issues in the Arts Council and significant lapses in oversight by the Department, which was informed from early 2021 of challenges in progressing the business transformation project and which received periodic updates at further stages of the project. I assure Deputy Ó Snodaigh and the House that I am not satisfied - quite the contrary - with the decisions of officials not to inform the then Minister or the Secretary General and am determined to ensure the issues highlighted are urgently addressed.

It is clear from the report on the examination of the Arts Council business transformation project commissioned by my Department that while there were flows of information to the Department, no progress report issued to the then Minister or the Secretary General in respect of this project prior to the summer of 2024, either directly from the Arts Council or from within my Department. This report details the evolution of the project, the decision-making process and the flows of information between the Arts Council and the Department. For example, the report highlights that the council had sent the Department an update report for the April 2021 stakeholder board meeting. That showed that the project was tracking red and that its launch was postponed from the original April 2021 launch date to an interim launch in November 2021 and a full launch in April 2022. It also stated that project delays would impact the budget and listed key risks to the project.

Accountability is fundamental to public confidence in our public services. Given the importance of the work of the Arts Council, it is critical this confidence is restored. I have recently announced an external review of the governance and organisational culture in the Arts Council. I also presented to Government the draft terms of reference for a review of my own Department’s internal governance operations, focusing on governance, risk and escalation processes. This review will assess the learnings for the Department from the Arts Council project, the adequacy of its risk management procedures and the escalation measures to alert the management board of the Department to relevant issues.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister. I welcome the review and while I am not trying to pre-empt its findings, at the end of the day, the Minister himself just mentioned that, in April 2021, the project was "tracking red" or flagged. Somebody, somewhere did not inform the Minister. Who was responsible? Who was liaising with the Arts Council? Who in the Arts Council was meant to liaise with the Department?

It should not take a review to come up with the person or persons responsible and why they did not act at that stage, when deadlines were not being reached or going to be reached or when, in 2021 and before, it was indicated there was a need to increase the funding to deliver the project. This is what seemed to be indicated at that stage. Who is responsible at this stage?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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As Deputy Ó Snodaigh appreciates, I have asked Professor Niamh Brennan, John McCarthy and Margaret Cullen to ascertain once and for all what the Deputy is asking, because they are the same questions I am asking. I am not happy about this at all. I do not think anybody could possibly be happy about it. There is a big systems failure here. This is cold comfort when almost €7 million is gone, most of which cannot be retrieved. There is a big systems failure, not only in the Arts Council but also in the Department, that I have to get to the bottom of and find out how it happened, why it happened, who was responsible, when was it notified and a range of other issues I have included in the terms of reference for the investigation into governance and oversight. There is also our relationship with the Arts Council and the fitness of the Arts Council to be able to carry out major capital investment programmes of this nature. How this whole thing stands today is massively unsatisfactory. I hope the Niamh Brennan report, if I can call it this, will be finished soon and that I will be able to come before the House or the committee and lay it before it.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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There is also a question as to whether the Arts Council itself, or any such State organisation, should be responsible for such an IT project or whether the projects should be centralised. This is another question. When will the review be completed? The Minister made the point that not much of this project can be retrieved. What can be retrieved? Is there any indication at this early stage of how much money can be retrieved? What are the consequences? Will this colossal waste of taxpayers' money, which could have been well spent on other projects or even properly spent on this project, have consequences? In particular, this was aimed at artists and making it easy for artists to interact with the Arts Council. They are down because they do not have this system. They do not have the computerisation system they want to be able to access the Arts Council.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I will take the final point Deputy Ó Snodaigh raised first. The existing system is working. It might not be great but it is working. It might be cumbersome and clunky but it is working. I will not be in favour of any further investment in ICT until, to put it in basic terms, I am assured those who are getting the investment know what they are doing. Of the €7 million spent on this, to be honest about it for the benefit of the House, I do not think any of it can be recovered, and I am being very honest. There are also questions for the Office of the Government Chief Information Officer with regard to how we do ICT projects and who does them. Do we do them centrally or at agency level? Agency staff are paid good salaries and are responsible to the House under legislation to make sure the money we vote from here is properly spent. I should not have to micromanage every agency under my remit, but if it comes to a situation where we have to restructure, reorganise and micromanage for short periods, it is something we cannot rule out.