Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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2. To ask the Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht if he will provide further details in respect of his plans to review spending by bodies under his remit and-or aegis. [9994/25]

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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First, I take the opportunity to wish the Minister well and congratulate him on his new role. I ask him to provide further details in respect of his plans to review spending by bodies under his remit or aegis.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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Déanaim comhghairdeas leis an Teachta Farrelly. Go n-éirí go geal leis. I hope he has an enjoyable period of time here and I wish him the best of luck in his endeavours, along with the other Deputies across the House and the new Deputies I see around me.

As Minister, I have recently brought, in quick succession, two annual reports of bodies under the aegis of my Department which have raised concerns in regard to the management of taxpayers' money. The first related to a major expenditure of almost €7 million on a failed ICT project at the Arts Council and the second regarded the expenditure of almost €125,000 on a digital X-ray machine for the National Gallery which has not been useable due to the lack of a proper room to contain it.

I therefore requested the Department write to all the State bodies in the culture, sport and media sectors under the aegis of my Department, seeking information with regard to expenditure on capital projects since 2020 to provide assurances to me and, more important, the public with regard to the management of capital expenditure. Bodies were asked to provide budgetary information on capital projects costing more than €500,000 since 2020.

In addition, bodies were asked to identify if there were other capital projects below this level which should be brought to the Department’s attention for any other reason, such as where there has been significant expenditure on projects which were abandoned or have materially failed to deliver on their objectives. The need to ensure compliance with early warning protocol arrangements between the Department and the State body, as well as with Circular 14/21, relating to arrangements for oversight of digital and ICT-related initiatives in the civil and public service, was also set out in the correspondence.

This exercise, which is designed to provide an additional layer of assurance around spending on capital projects, is in addition to the existing oversight arrangements in place, as well as the annual auditing process undertaken by the Comptroller and Auditor General. It should be noted that the code of practice for the governance of State bodies provides a framework for the application of best practice in corporate governance by State bodies. The board is responsible for ensuring that effective systems of internal control are instituted and implemented in the State body, including financial, operational and compliance control and risk management. I will read the rest of my written reply in a while.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There is a bit of a smoke and mirrors effort happening here; a bit of a damage limitation stunt. I appreciate what the Minister has inherited here is a little bit of a mess but the reality is that his Department already knows what is being spent. That is fair to say. What we have seen though, with both of the incidents the Minister cited, is an abject failure in terms of oversight in governance.

I am really intrigued to see how deep he is willing to go in this regard. Will he get into the weeds of writing to a national governing body, such as the FAI, for example, asking it to write to the Kildare and district underage league, KDUL, asking for reports? What does that mechanism look like? That is a really interesting point.

We have seen reports that the Arts Council flagged this issue three years ago, so there were no question marks over the fact that there were concerns about this many years ago, but the Department was not in a position to provide support. When we see a shortfall in reporting mechanisms within the Department, is it not meritable now to look at what is going on in the Department as much as what is going on within the agencies?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I do not disagree with the Deputy. The committee I have established to examine the governance of the Arts Council is being led by Professor Niamh Brennan. It includes Margaret Cullen and John McCarthy. They have all in their own right plenty of experience of examining corporate governance in other areas as well. I do not disagree with the Deputy with regard to the Department's role but I have to find out first of all the level of detail that is required here. I will bring a report to the Government first and I will lay it before the Dáil. It is in my interests and in the Department's interests to get public confidence in the moneys that are voted from here to the Department in order to make sure that the Department and its agencies spend money wisely on behalf of the taxpayer. I have no issue with that. I am not suggesting that the Deputy is suggesting this, but I am not in any way attempting to hide anything here. The most important thing is that Niamh Brennan's committee be asked to do a body of work by me and get it done as quickly as possible. Separately, I will deal with the National Gallery and any other issues there as well, and I will lay all of them before the Houses of the Oireachtas. There is no issue in that regard.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We all know, having worked in different sectors, that extensive reporting mechanisms are in place already. If we draw down public funds, we have to report at every step of that process. We know that, for example, as regards the IT system, there are what we call decision gates at various stages of expenditure, whereby organisations have to report that back. As for my concern about the committee to which the Minister referred, I would love to see the terms of reference for the committee. Are we going to look only at the responsibility of the Arts Council in this example or are we going to forensically examine, if it was identified that there were issues here but that the Department in and of itself was not in a position to support the organisation, where else that is happening? That is a crucial bit.

As regards that root-and-branch review, will the Minister put on the record of the House today that the arts sector will not suffer financially as a result of what has happened in recent months? That is really important. There was concern out there that the very valuable work undertaken by artists throughout this country will suffer because of this. Will the Minister put on record that that will not happen?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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To take the last point first, it is not my intention that anybody who is legitimately doing very good work on behalf of the arts community across the country should suffer. That is not my concern here at all. My concern is the same as the Deputy's concern, that is, that if there is voted expenditure from the Oireachtas to Government Departments, it must be for the purpose that it is for. I will also say - I said this in the course of an interview - that the Minister for Health does not know, nor should she know, nor could she know, how many thermometers are in University Hospital Waterford and how much they cost. We have civil and public servants within the Department and within different agencies to make sure that the moneys that are spent on our behalf as Members of Dáil Éireann are spent appropriately. The first thing I have to find out here is who knew what when, to bring that information before the Dáil and to make the necessary changes in terms of governance and oversight from within my own Department, but as well as that, within the Department's relationship with the bodies concerned. We will do that, and if people have any suggestions, I am all ears and I will not rule anything out.