Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What transpired at the meeting of the Dáil reform committee last evening confirms that the Tánaiste's Government is hell-bent on plunging the Dáil into chaos. The Government's proposal seeks to turn the democratic rules and functioning of the Parliament inside out and upside down. It is seriously pushing to allow Michael Lowry and his group of TDs to be part of Leaders' Questions. It is also trying to extend this right to backbench TDs from its own parties, who already have multiple opportunities to speak in the Dáil. Bizarrely, the Government then wants to cut Taoiseach's questions, the current opportunity for all TDs, including backbench Government TDs, to put questions. This makes it crystal clear that this is all about Michael Lowry.

Leaders' Questions is the main facility for the Opposition to hold the Government to account. It is critical to the democratic integrity of the Dáil that this be upheld. Michael Lowry and his group are not Opposition TDs. They are not unaligned and they are not others; they are Government TDs – plain and simple. They designated themselves as such when they negotiated, drafted and agreed the programme for Government and then publicly announced they would support the Government in good days and bad. To allow them to be part of Leaders' Questions makes a mockery of the Dáil. The Government is so determined to protect its grubby deal with Michael Lowry that it would shred the core democratic functions of this Parliament.

Michael Lowry is a politician who still has serious questions to answer regarding his evidence to the Moriarty tribunal. Indeed, questions were raised on the floor of the Dáil four weeks ago and we have not heard a peep from Deputy Lowry since – no statement, no answers.

Has the Tánaiste asked Michael Lowry whether he had 57 meetings regarding the Doncaster deal, including here in Leinster House, because he told the tribunal he had no involvement in that deal? Has he asked Michael Lowry whether, in August 2002, he went to a rural farmhouse to burn original documents relating to deals at the heart of the Moriarty investigations? Has he asked Michael Lowry how his accountant made two separate payments, which originated in Gibraltar, to the person arranging the Doncaster deal, because these payments were never disclosed to the tribunal?

The Tánaiste and the Taoiseach, Deputy Micheál Martin, have made Michael Lowry the kingmaker in their Government and now provide him with cover. It seems they will stop at nothing to protect Deputy Lowry and their grubby deal. They intend to throw the Oireachtas into chaos. They are manipulating Standing Orders and blocking the formation of committees. While they focus on protecting their deal, there are big issues affecting Ireland and people's lives. We face potential trade barriers that could have huge consequences. Rents are through the roof. The prices of fuel and groceries are growing up again. Hundreds of people are lying on hospital trolleys every single day. Parents of children with special needs still have to fight and fight for services.

The Tánaiste and Taoiseach gave their word in this Chamber that a solution agreeable to both the Government and Opposition would be found. Last night, they broke their word and they have moved forward with yet another stroke. This is not going to fly. The combined Opposition will fight this every step of the way. This needs to be resolved in a way that upholds the democratic integrity of the Dáil, defends the rights of the real Opposition to hold the Government to account and, more important, allows us to get on with the work of the Dáil. The leaders of the combined Opposition have written to the Tánaiste seeking an urgent meeting with him and the Taoiseach to work out a solution. Will he agree now to that meeting?

Denise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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No, I will not, as we have already had a very extensive process. Let me agree with the Deputy on one thing: the people of Ireland expect this place and the people who show up to do their work to start talking about the issues that matter to them and addressing issues around housing, special needs education and disability. What they certainly do not expect is this sort of immature behaviour whereby, if a democratic vote is held in a committee of this Parliament – a Dáil reform committee – people do not respect its outcome. The only thing that actually subverts democracy is minority rule. We had a general election, and the people sitting behind me, in Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, have every right to have their voices heard and to bring forward proposals. I am going to stand up for their rights on behalf of their constituents.

Denise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
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Over here, too.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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A Cheann Comhairle, I could do without the cacophony.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I ask Deputies to let the Tánaiste answer.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle. Let the people at home know that, in the next six weeks, there will be 90 priority questions to various Ministers. Sinn Féin will have 47, Labour will have 12, the Social Democrats will have 11 and those on the Government side will have none – zero. How is that fair? How is their democratic mandate lesser than that of Members of the Opposition? So, the reality is this-----

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Let us deal with that also.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Out of respect, Members should listen to the answer. Members will be able to come back in. Please, Deputies, allow the Tánaiste to finish.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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They are using my time. There is quite a bit I want to say on this. We have engaged extensively and we have also moved.

Denise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
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The Government did not.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, but we did. The Deputy was not at the meetings; her leader was there. We have moved.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Not with me. We have moved.

We had a position and we were willing to change it because, in fairness to the Opposition, it is important to listen. We did not go ahead with the proposal that would have seen Opposition questions during Leaders' Questions eaten into. Under these proposals, the Members opposite all get the exact same amount of time for questions to leaders. That is not their problem; their problem is that they do not want other people to have a right to ask their questions.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Please.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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We live in a parliamentary democracy in which the mandate of everybody, in government and opposition, counts. In so many parliamentary democracies, including the one just across the water, of course government Members of Parliament can ask the head or deputy head of government questions. That happens in PMQs in the House of Commons every single week. So, enough of the hyperbole.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Please.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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We have lots of hyperbole.

Máire Devine (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Answer the question.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I have answered the question. We have had meetings, for dozens upon dozens of hours. We had a democratic vote in this Parliament of the people's representatives and now we intend to get on with the people's business.

Deputy Carthy raised the issues of trade and tariffs. What he has done in opposition today is utterly childish. At a time when it has never been more important for Ministers to go abroad to represent this country in trade talks, in tariff talks, on Ukraine, on the Middle East and on issues the Deputy says he cares about, what has he decided to do? He has decided to block pairing so people cannot travel. Shame on him.

Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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What about Doncaster?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I will deal with that now in a moment.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Members should be respectful to everyone. I call Deputy Carthy.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste should not ask people to buy that rubbish. He might treat his own Fine Gael backbenchers as idiots but he will not take the Irish people for fools, because this has nothing-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputies-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South-Central, Fine Gael)
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Withdraw the remark.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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This has nothing to do with the rights of backbench-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputies, I cannot hear myself. The Deputy might withdraw-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Would somebody give me a chance-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South-Central, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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-----to put the withdrawal question? Members, please understand that the public are looking in. We are all adults. I ask you, Deputy Carthy, on the basis of the need to have respect for every Member-----

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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Which he does not have.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----of the House, to withdraw those remarks.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Which remarks precisely?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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With regard to what you said about how the Tánaiste treats his backbenchers, I think you should-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry that the Tánaiste is treating his backbenchers in this way because this has nothing to do with the rights of backbench Government TDs.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Yes, it does.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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This is about one man's demands, the demands of Michael Lowry.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Who stopped the clock? Why is the clock stopped?

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We know that Fine Gael owes Michael Lowry one. Michael Lowry is the man who took Fine Gael from the verge of bankruptcy to a point-----

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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There are many people the Deputy owes one.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----where there were millions in profits in a manner that has never fully been explained.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Whatever the Tánaiste owes Michael Lowry, he owes more to the Irish people. He owes them the right to have a functioning Parliament where the Opposition can hold the Government to account. What he has attempted to do is usurp the rights of the Opposition, and it will not be tolerated. What I am asking him-----

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Is that a threat?

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Considering all the hyperbole about pairs, he insists on using his majority to ram through the most undemocratic charade-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank the Deputy.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----farce-----

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Withdraw that remark.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----that the Dáil has seen. Do not accept that the Opposition will just-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Time is up, Deputy. The Tánaiste to respond. Thank you, Deputies.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputy Carthy, thank you.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----the Opposition and-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputy Carthy.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Tánaiste to respond.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I will do my best. Deputy Carthy talks about the Moriarty tribunal. I fully accept the findings of the Moriarty tribunal and my party voted in favour of setting it up. However, we do not have to look back 20 or 30 years to find issues in respect of fundraising when we look at the Deputy's party. We only had to read the Sunday Independent last week.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Deflect, deflect, deflect.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Carthy asked me if I have ever asked somebody a question. Did he ever ask a former councillor in his own constituency,-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste never answered the question.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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-----former Sinn Féin Councillor Owen Smyth, what he meant when he talked about Billy Hampton, the man who left a rural cottage to Sinn Féin? Does the Deputy remember the €99,000 for the derelict cottage from the reclusive English millionaire? The former councillor in Deputy Carthy's constituency said that the money bequeathed to Sinn Féin by Hampton-----

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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This has nothing to do with anything.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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-----was "a lot sweeter" than the Northern Bank robbery money.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputies, please.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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When you put it in context, it is "a lot sweeter" than something like the Northern Bank-----

A Deputy:

The Tánaiste is not answering the question.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Excuse me, it does not matter. It is not up to me.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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It was legitimate, it was straightforward and it was handled properly. There was no comeback. I am being shouted down in this democratic Parliament by people who are engaging in-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputy Carthy. Tánaiste, continue please.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I am being shouted down. I know the Deputy is a bit sensitive this week. He must be the first justice spokesperson-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Tánaiste has ten seconds.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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-----to ever stand by the graveside of somebody who was involved in the murder of an Irish soldier and a recruit member of the Garda Síochána.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That is someone you call a patriot. Shame on you.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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While Deputies may not get an answer to a question, in the same way as if I ask a Deputy to withdraw a remark and he or she does not, I can only ask. We are moving to Deputy Gannon of the Social Democrats.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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The game is up. The pretence that this Government values cross-party collaboration has been clearly exposed as a sham.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Given the chance to work with the Opposition on Dáil reform, the Government preferred the nuclear option, ramming through its undemocratic proposals on Dáil reform at the 11th hour, all to deliver a grubby little deal for Deputy Michael Lowry and his band of Independents. It makes us and the public wonder what exactly is the leverage that Deputy Lowry has on Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil that brings forth such commitments.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Allow the Member to continue.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Like all grubby little deals, this deal was done behind closed doors and we may never know the details. The Tánaiste made a commitment in this Chamber. Both he and the Taoiseach gave solemn commitments that they would work across the Chamber, collaboratively, in respect of any Dáil reform. That very clearly lies in tatters. Who can forget other promises? The previous Government promised that 40,000 homes would be built before the election. It promised to enact the occupied territories Bill before the election. Those promises are all gone and nothing was delivered. I will not use the word "lies" but it is hard to say otherwise.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Well-----

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I will take that back. It was another con trotted out just to give this idea to the public of who the Government is. What it does in private is completely different. Very clearly, the Opposition cannot trust this Government.

I want to talk about another issue. It has been clearly flagged that the Government is going to bring forward a proposal to remove the triple lock. That proposal will be brought to Cabinet next month. Whenever the Tánaiste is asked about that proposal, he talks in riddles. We know that the Tánaiste wants to remove the requirement for peacekeeping missions to have a UN mandate but we are totally in the dark about what he plans to replace it with. Yesterday, my colleague, Deputy Gibney, was told by the Tánaiste that these plans have been long in the making. Why can we not be provided with any clarity? If it has been so long in the making, what exactly is the Tánaiste looking to replace it with? Will it be a double lock? Will it be a single lock? Will the UN have any role in the process at all? These are very reasonable questions for something that has been long in the making and I hope the Tánaiste can give us some clarity.

I am not saying for a second that the UN is perfect, far from it, but we all remember the horrors from which it was born. Therefore, now is not the time to be removing ourselves from these institutions that we should be committing to building up. If we remove ourselves from the triple lock and the UN, is the Government saying that we will go on NATO missions? Will they be EU-led missions? What missions would the Tánaiste like to send our troops on that cannot be done under the triple lock as it stands? I would like answers to these questions.

The Tánaiste said he would want to work constructively across the House in respect of the triple lock. We are off to a very poor start in that regard so we will take that with a large pinch of salt. Trust has been broken. I ask the Tánaiste not to speak in riddles about the triple lock. What exactly is the proposal?

One more time, I implore the Tánaiste not to ram through these undemocratic proposals. We all know that backbenchers have speaking time during questions on promised legislation. There is ample opportunity for backbenchers to have their voices heard.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Thank you, Deputy, time is up.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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It is unjust, unfair and unbecoming.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Tánaiste to respond, please. Thank you, Deputy.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. First, the Deputy referred to "ramming through". A lot of phrases are being used here. The Opposition has been spending more time talking about speaking rights than any other issue in this Dáil. Anybody watching in at home does not believe this is being rammed through. There have been dozens upon dozens upon dozens of hours of meetings in relation to this. Now it is time to make a decision and move on, get this place working and get the committees set up so we can get down to the granular detail of the occupied territories Bill in committee. That is where that granular level of detail happens. It happens at committee hearings. We need to move and establish those committees. I really believe that.

The second word that cannot just be thrown around is "undemocratic". It is an absolute act of democracy that the people's representatives-----

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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You have no mandate.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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-----come in here and exercise their vote "Tá" or "Níl".

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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You have no mandate.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Please, Deputy.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, the arrogance of the Deputy on this issue.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy says we have no mandate but these people have a mandate. The Deputy has just shouted across the floor of the Dáil, in case people at home missed it, "No mandate". Ceann Comhairle, everybody has a mandate.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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The Opposition does not want to hear from Government backbenchers.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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As the Ceann Comhairle said in her letter yesterday, which I read-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputies.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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As the Ceann Comhairle said in her letter yesterday, it is up to the Members of this House, the democratically elected people of this Dáil, to decide the Standing Orders. It is absolutely in line with democracy after an election for Government and Opposition to put forward amendments and then have a vote on the floor of the Dáil. That is what we intend to do. We are going to do it next week. We are going to respect the outcome of the Dáil reform committee meeting yesterday, have a vote next week and move this place forward in terms of delivering for the people.

On the issue of the triple lock, I genuinely want to engage constructively because we need to get this right. Even though I accept that we do not share a view, I had a good engagement with Deputy Gibney on this issue yesterday. I look forward to more good engagements across the House. I believe that we need to amend the triple lock. We in the previous Government made that clear. We made it clear during the election campaign. We have also made it very clear in the programme for Government.

There have already been a number of times where the veto of the UN Security Council - and people such as Vladimir Putin sit on the council - has stopped Irish people, the men and women of Óglaigh na hÉireann of whom I am so proud, participating. I gave examples yesterday. For example, the possibility of a veto emerged in 2022 in respect of UN authorisation for Operation Althea, the European Union Force Bosnia and Herzegovina, EUFOR. In 1999, a permanent member of the UN Security Council vetoed the renewal of the United Nations Preventive Deployment Force. As a result, we were unable to participate in the mission in the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia. More recently, in 2015, the EU established a security mission in the Mediterranean to help refugees. It was know as Operation Sophia. This mission did not have a UN mandate until 2016 and we could not participate. There are organisations that we, and I think the Deputy, passionately believe in, such as the Maritime Analysis and Operations Centre on narcotics, an international maritime intelligence centre supported by the EU. It requested a Naval Service ship and Ireland wanted to go. There was political consensus around that but we could not do it because there was no UN mandate.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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The facts speak for themselves. The Government's credibility has been shattered. We speak of mandates. Each of us stood before the electorate a mere two months ago. Had that electorate known that the Tánaiste would be making grubby little deals that change the nature by which the Government would be able to correct its own homework, I doubt anybody would buy into it. That is what we are talking about.

On the triple lock, I do not think the Tánaiste can answer a simple question.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy asked about missions.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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We asked for specifics. The Tánaiste knows well that we hear a lot about UN Security Council vetoes. The reality is that it has only happened once, more than 20 years ago. The law was clarified in 2006 to help to address that specific situation. It is in the Defence (Amendment) Act 2006. It has not stopped Irish peacekeepers from participating in missions. The UN needs reform but we should be working on that from the inside instead of abandoning it as a requirement.

I again ask the Tánaiste to remove the Government from this ridiculous policy of changing the nature of our parliamentary democracy. More importantly, be truthful with the Irish people about the triple lock and what exactly the Government plans to replace it with. The Tánaiste did not give me that answer.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I will do my best. I was asked a question as to what missions we could not participate in.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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No, you were not.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Let us check the transcript. I heard the Deputy ask clearly where-----

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I asked about the double lock or single lock.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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-----I would like to send people on missions. It is almost impossible. I am just trying to answer the question. I am allowed to answer. Am I allowed to speak? Is that okay? I know the Opposition does not want the backbenchers to speak but am I allowed to speak?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Tánaiste, please.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Thank you. I would really like to speak. I have given the Deputy four examples and nothing to do with 25 years ago. Last time I checked, 2022 was three years ago; 2017 was not long ago and nor were 2015 or 1999. Let the people at home know the following. This Government and I are in favour of military neutrality. What we are not in favour of is Vladimir Putin having a veto over where our peacekeepers can go. We will bring the legislation to Cabinet. When it is brought to Cabinet, it will be published and will go to pre-legislative scrutiny. If this place can get on with its job, we will set up a committee, bring in experts and engage as a committee.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Contempt, arrogance, sleveen politics and speaking out of both sides of your mouth------

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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----- are what were on display at the Dáil reform committee on the part of the Government last night. Why is that important? It is not just contempt, arrogance and the Government speaking out of both sides of its mouth that are a problem for the Opposition, but it is the mask slipping on a more general approach of the Government, which is about arrogance, contempt and speaking out of both sides of its mouth on precisely the issues we are trying to represent to the Tánaiste in here about the failure of his Government to address the problems faced by ordinary people. The contempt we saw on display last night mirrored the contempt and arrogance the Tánaiste displayed when he confronted a section 39 worker in Cork during the election campaign and was called out on it, and it goes on. Despite his pleadings afterwards, when he was made shamefaced by Charlotte Fallon about the despicable, arrogant, contemptuous treatment of section 39 workers who look after people with dementia and Parkinson's disease, people who have suffered strokes, people with disabilities and other vulnerable people, he continues to show that contempt such that thousands of those low-paid workers have had to ballot for industrial action because despite his squealings during the election, his Government still has not done right by those low-paid workers.

I was talking to one such worker today, who has, by the way, written to all the Ministers individually. He is a section 39 worker out in Ballymun. He has been working for years looking after the most vulnerable in our society. He is on a miserable €15 an hour and many of his colleagues are on €13. They suffered two pay cuts during the austerity period which were never restored. He has got a pay increase of about €1 per hour over a period of ten years but is still earning just above minimum wage and he does not enjoy parity with other people doing exactly the same job who are directly enployed by the HSE. The Government says it is going to do right by these workers. The Tánaiste said he heard what Charlotte Fallon was saying, but still the Government goes into the WRC - or sometimes, as Noel told me, does not bother going in - to give a firm commitment that there will be pay restoration and pay parity for section 39 workers-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Thanks, Deputy.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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-----and the pay increases they should have got over the last ten years to address the cost of living.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Thank you. The time is up, Deputy.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Is the Tánaiste going to give that commitment to section 39 workers-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Tánaiste to respond.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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-----or will he show the contempt, the arrogance-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Thank you. The Tánaiste, please.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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-----and the sleveen politics that were on display last night at the Dáil reform committee.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Thank you, Deputy. It is for the Tánaiste now to respond.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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First, on the issue of speaking rights, my numbers may be off so correct me if they are, a Cheann Comhairle, but in a Leaders' Questions slot a speaker gets three minutes to ask the question, there are three minutes to respond, there is one minute to ask a follow-up question and then another minute to respond. We are having a row here for about eight minutes twice a week. That is eight minutes twice a week where we believe Government backbench TDs and Independent TDs who are not Ministers and are unaligned should be allowed ask a question on behalf of their constituents. That is it. That is what the Opposition is having the row about. Then, when it comes to priority questions-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste knows it is not.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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-----the Opposition does not lose a minute.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputies.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Why then is the Government getting rid of Taoiseach's questions?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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To all these people who are at home-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputy Boyd Barrett can address it.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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People at home watching this, who are busy with their actual lives and the real issues that matter to them, are wondering what this row is about in the Dáil.

Denise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
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No, they are not.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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They know what it is about.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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What it is not about-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputies.

Denise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
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They know what it is about.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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What it is not about, a Cheann Comhairle-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is about the grubby deal that was done.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputies, you are only delaying the answer.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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In my experience the Opposition does not seem to have any challenge speaking, including speaking over me. What this is actually about is not taking a minute of speaking time off Sinn Féin, People Before Profit, Labour, the Social Democrats, Independent Ireland or anybody I have left out but saying that, twice a week for eight minutes, we will allow people who got democratically elected with thousands of votes to stand up on behalf of their constituents and ask a couple of questions. I think that is perfectly reasonable.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputies, let us have nobody speaking over anybody, please.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That is the truth. We see here during Leaders' Questions that the Opposition does not want any of us over here to be able to speak. There is a new tactic since the Dáil came back. It is studs up, shout them down, put up the video on Twitter and misrepresent the position.

Máire Devine (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Or TikTok.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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We are not going to take it anymore. I am going to speak on behalf of my democratic mandate as well.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Please.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I love the fact Deputy Louise O'Reilly thinks everything is so hilarious. I do not think it is hilarious that the Opposition is continuing to misrepresent people in here having a chance to ask a question. People who got elected in the Deputy's constituency who support the Government-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I do not rate you, Tánaiste-----

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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-----have every right as well-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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------but when it comes to misrepresenting people you clearly know what you are talking about.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Please, Deputy.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Section 39 workers.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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On the second part of Deputy Boyd Barrett's question, on section 39 workers, I agree that these individuals do incredibly important work in our health, disability and social care services. I also agree that we need to address the issue of pay with urgency. That is why, this week, my Cabinet colleagues, the Minister, Deputy Foley, and the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, updated the Cabinet on this matter. The next step is to get people back into the WRC. I want workers to know talks are scheduled to resume on Monday, 3 March. I want to see them brought to a successful conclusion because it is absolutely in the interests of workers, as articulately put forward by Charlotte, but it is also in the interests of service users. These are people with a disability and we need to make sure we can properly staff these organisations. The Government is fully committed to making progress on this.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The point is that people who are part of the Government will never really ask the hard questions and call the Government out.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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There is the arrogance.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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There is the arrogance. The Deputy's question is more important than theirs.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Noel, the section 39 worker I was talking to, said the Tánaiste was going to mention the WRC. He said the workers had been to the WRC and sometimes the Government does not even bother to turn up. He said it is a stalling tactic. He guaranteed that Simon Harris would say "WRC". The workers do not want the WRC; they want a commitment to pay restoration. Give the commitment to pay parity so we do not have people doing the same job being paid different rates because one of them happens to be outsourced to a section 39 charity looking after the most vulnerable in our society. Dún Laoghaire home care is closing tomorrow because the Government is outsourcing the home care for people with dementia and other vulnerable people to a charity which can collapse-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Thank you.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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-----because the Government does not care about the service users and the section 39 workers who are looking after the most vulnerable in our society.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Thank you, Deputy Boyd Barrett. Now give the Tánaiste time to answer.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Give a commitment. Stop talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Tánaiste, please answer the question.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy must be exhausted from all that shouting at me. There is no need to shout at me. I am listening to him very clearly here.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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You are not hearing.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I am hearing and listening. Please listen back.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I am listening.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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There is one minute.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I have said very clearly we are going to go to the WRC, and yes I am going to say "WRC" because, as the Deputy's constituent would know and as everybody around the country knows, that is where we sort out pay issues.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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We do not sort them by shouting and roaring at each other. We sort them through the established industrial relations mechanism of this country.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is the Government that decides.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The Government sets the mandate for that. I have already told the Deputy and, much more important, people at home that the Cabinet was updated on this matter this week and the talks are going to progress at the WRC on Monday.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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That is not a commitment.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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No, sorry, that is a commitment. It is a very clear commitment.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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To talk.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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It is a very clear commitment to make progress.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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We got that commitment last night.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Boyd Barrett let the mask slip here. He believes his question and the ferocity of his question are better than all their questions-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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It is called "passionate".

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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-----and more valuable. It is not. The Deputy is definitely a passionate contributor, but everybody in government and opposition-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Thank you, Tánaiste. Time is up.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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This a parliamentary democracy and everyone has a right to put their question-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Thank you.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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-----and I am going to vindicate the right of my party colleagues.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I now move to Deputy Richard O'Donoghue.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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They can ask questions at their party meeting.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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This is the Dáil.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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They have the Fine Gael Party meeting.

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent Ireland Party)
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This goes back to when the Tánaiste was Taoiseach and we had a meeting about wind farms. He was asked five parliamentary questions. He responded to two immediately, delayed the response to two more, which came to him on 22 October, until the day of the election and has yet to respond to one.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That is a bit unfair.

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent Ireland Party)
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We asked him to clarify for how many years wind farm applications have been approved without HSE oversight. We asked why An Bord Pleanála ceased informing the HSE of such applications, whether An Bord Pleanála was instructed to stop the practice and who is responsible for ensuring public health risks are properly assessed in the planning process. Why were responses to parliamentary questions published on 22 October regarding HSE involvement in wind farm planning delayed for five weeks, held by the Tánaiste's then Department and only referred to the HSE on the day of the general election? We requested that the outstanding question be fully answered. We asked the Taoiseach to state the Government's official position on the health impact of wind farms given the absence of HSE input in the planning process and growing concerns for affected communities.

Planners lack the expertise to assess public health risks. Why did An Bord Pleanála stop informing the HSE? Was it instructed to stop? Who was liable? What is the State's position on wind farms and their health impacts?

The High Court has ruled that wind turbine noise is a nuisance. Will the Tánaiste provide a written response confirming whether wind farm noise at 43 dB (A) LA90 is considered a statutory nuisance? Does the Government reject the High Court's judgment on wind turbine noise being a nuisance?

Before the Tánaiste answers my questions, I wish to point out that the guidelines relating to wind farms have not been updated since 2006. There is video evidence from 2013 of the current Taoiseach asking Enda Kenny, one of his predecessors, to have the guidelines updated. I have a written version of Deputy Martin's concerns at the time. Since then, the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste have been in government for a number of years but the guidelines have not been updated. This is despite the fact that there are health risks involved. Will the Tánaiste provide the written reply I have requested? Will he also respond to my other questions?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy O'Donoghue for the question. I also thank him for meeting me and the Minister of State, Deputy Canney and for bringing some of his constituents to see me about this issue. The stress, anxiety and worry of the people the Deputy brought to meet me are experiencing was very clear. I acknowledge that. Before we get into science, guidelines and everything else, I accept the bona fides of the people concerned and the worry and stress they have experienced. They spoke to me about the impact this was having on them. This is one of the reasons why we have explicitly stated in the programme for Government that there is a need to make progress regarding updated guidelines. I accept that this has gone on for far too long. It has been talked about for a long number of years. I will reply in writing to each of the specific questions the Deputy asked. I thank him for suggesting I do that.

The idea of the HSE being a notifiable organisation is common sense. That would certainly assist in closing the loop in terms of some of the issues that people have raised regarding the guidelines.

The factual position is that the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is progressing a focused review of the wind energy development guidelines. The review is examining a number of key aspects, including noise, setback distances, shadow flicker, community obligation and dividend and grid connections. It is working in conjunction with the Department of Climate, Environment and Communications, which has primary responsibility for environmental noise matters. Both Departments have been working to advance guidance on the noise aspect of the guidelines, which, I am informed, is highly technical in nature. The Departments have also been engaging on proposals regarding the measurement and assessment of noise from wind turbines to ensure they are robust and fit for purpose, having regard to various targets that have been set. Further to this engagement, I am informed that the Department of Climate, Environment and Communication appointed noise consultants in May 2023 to work on amendments to those aspects of the guidelines. I am also informed that this work is now substantially complete.

The Department of housing, in conjunction with the Department of communications, will make any further changes to the draft guidelines that are deemed necessary. Once they are published, there will be an opportunity for people to engage in respect of the guidelines. This is fair, because we have had new planning legislation, including the new Planning and Development Act and the national planning framework. We need to make sure that the finalised guidelines are in line with that legislation and the new national planning framework. While the current guidelines remain in force, the work on new wind guidelines is under way and being accelerated. I will provide the Deputy with written answers to each of the specific matters he raised.

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent Ireland Party)
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I thank the Tánaiste. I am going to go back to what the Taoiseach, Deputy Martin, said in 2013. Before I do, I must state that the Government is taking information on health issues from producers and manufacturers and ignoring World Health Organization guidelines. In 2013, the Taoiseach, Deputy Martin, referred to a full absence of transparency, an absence of consultation with residents and, above all, the absence of a legislative framework, health implications in terms of noise, shadow flicker, a reduction in amenities and a negative visual impact. He quoted Professor Alun Evans, who wrote in the British Medical Journal: "I greatly sympathise with you in your plight. Quite simply your life will be ruined if this goes ahead." The Taoiseach went on to say that the planning guidelines of 2006 were outdated in terms of the framework for the new technology. He requested that we accelerate the process. That was 12 years ago. People and their families have suffered health implications. Communities have been devastated. With all due respect, accelerating matters after 12 years gives me no hope for the future.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I have acknowledged that this has gone on for a very long time. That is true, and there is no getting away from it. I have also tried to provide, which I accept may be cold comfort to some of the Deputy's constituents and people he has interacted with, some of the rationale behind that, including the evolving planning legislation, the national planning framework and, more crucially perhaps, the bringing in of experts to examine the issue of noise from a technical point of view to get the guidelines right.

I take on board the seriousness of this matter. It became very apparent to me when I saw the people who have experienced the stresses and strains of dealing with this.

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent Ireland Party)
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Will you give us a timeline?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I will ask the new Minister, Deputy Browne, to provide the Deputy with a timeline and to write to him regarding this matter.