Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Another day and another revelation of Government waste of public money. Over the weekend, it emerged that in 2017 the National Gallery of Ireland purchased a scanner at a cost to the taxpayer of nearly €125,000. The scanner has never been used because a suitable room could not be found to accommodate it. This equipment, which cost the people €125,000, has sat idle for eight years. This of course was not a once-off. The Taoiseach will recall that in 2018 the Government purchased a printer for the Oireachtas to the tune of €800,000. That printer lay idle for ten months because it could not fit into the building. Eventually, a further €230,000 of public money had to be spent on works to the building to get the equipment in.

What are people to make of all this? Government waste of public money is not a recent phenomenon, far from it. A Government culture of waste and incompetence is deep rooted. It has been going on for a very long time. We hear the infuriating example of taxpayers' money squandered with nothing done about it. It is a case of one revelation of waste after another. The public might well ask what is coming next and where does all this end? This week it is the scanner that has not been used. Add to that the €366,000 bike shed, the €1.4 million security hut, the €9 million for phone pouches and nearly half a million euro on a perimeter wall. The list of Government's scandalous waste of public money is as long as your arm, yet not a single person has been held to account.

In this Government culture of waste and incompetence it seems nobody is responsible. Where is the proper Government oversight of how public money is spent? Where are the checks and balances and reporting within public procurement processes for which the Government is responsible? How is this allowed to happen time and again? The Government can feign anger, say this has nothing to do with it and blame the National Gallery. It can point the finger at anybody and everybody under the sun for the most expensive bike shed, security hut or perimeter wall, but let us be clear - the buck stops with the Government. It is in charge and it is the Government's responsibility to ensure that public money is spent wisely and properly and to take corrective action when it is not.

Ordinary people see this for what it is. The Government either knows about the waste of public money and does nothing about it or it does not know at all and is grossly incompetent.

Maybe it is a bit of both.

Níl sa scanóir €125,000 nár úsáideadh riamh ach caibidil eile i scéal fada an Rialtais faoi chur amú airgead an phobail. Ní féidir leanúint ar aghaidh mar seo agus tá cuntasacht ag teastáil.

The Tánaiste, it seems, is furious. The Taoiseach appears to be bewildered by the whole thing, but the Government must give an explanation for the serial wastage of public money. Was this matter raised and discussed at Cabinet today? What does the Taoiseach propose to do about this latest episode of scandalous waste?

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Ar dtús báire, aontaímid go léir gur institiúid an-tábhachtach é an Gailearaí Náisiúnta agus baineann muintir na tíre an-taitneamh agus tairbhe as an institiúid seo. Caithfimid é sin a chur san áireamh i gcónaí. Ach tá sé an-deacair ar fad é seo a thuiscint. Conas is féidir scanóir a cheannach agus níl aon rud socraithe roimh ré maidir le húsáid an scanóra? Níl sé sásúil in aon chor, agus tá an tAire chun athmhachnamh a dhéanamh ar an gceist go léir. Gabhaim buíochas leis an C and AG agus a fhoireann as seo.

The National Gallery is a very important national institution. People from across the country derive great joy and benefit from it and it hosts many treasures but it is incomprehensible that it would have proceeded under a digitisation scheme to purchase a scanner and not have organised in advance how that scanner would be deployed in terms of a lead-lined room and so on. That is not acceptable. The Comptroller and Auditor General, it is my understanding, has unearthed this. It should be examined fully by the Committee of Public Accounts when that committee is established. It simply is not good enough. The gallery and those responsible have to answer for this.

Since 1998, the National Gallery of Ireland has had an X-ray facility, a film darkroom and wet processing facilities for researching the materials and techniques of its collection. Between 2012 and 2013, the old X-ray equipment, which was housed in a lead-lined room, was decommissioned in preparation for the National Gallery's master development plan to accommodate major on-site changes and infrastructural works. The intention was always to reinstate the X-ray facility but to move to a digital solution. What happened here is that a scheme was developed, a cultural digitisation scheme. The National Gallery of Ireland purchased a digital X-ray system valued at €124,000 but it is quite clear from the annual report that it had not worked how it was going to deploy or locate it and began discussions with the Office of Public Works after the purchase, looking at suitability of locations. That is completely unacceptable. People are right to be angry about it. The Comptroller and Auditor General, as I said, had a key role in that.

That said, while stories and events of this kind make people irate and very angry, we also have to take on board the fact that there have been a lot of good projects. It does not reflect the full picture of public expenditure on many worthy projects in this country. One only has to look at the number of schools, reservoirs and water works that we have built over the last number of years. There is example after example where funding has come in on budget and on time. I have listed before these school buildings, from Edmund Rice College Dublin to the Patrician Academy in Mallow and so forth. The Old Connaught-Woodbrook water supply scheme, Windmill Hill reservoir and the Kilkenny city regional water supply project are all good projects, delivered well and in the interests of people. In the justice area, Fitzgibbon Street Garda Station is providing fit-for-purpose accommodation and Walter Scott House will accommodate up to 900 Garda personnel from the Garda National Bureau of Criminal Investigation. Then there area all the various roles from Castlebaldwin to Listowel.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Thank you. I call Deputy McDonald.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is an overall feature here, but the House in general needs to focus on the specific and, more generally, on public value for money.

Deputy McDonald, please.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Let us do that then, will we? If the Taoiseach is citing Fitzgibbon Street Garda station as an example of efficiency and delivery, I am afraid he has chosen a bad example. It took years and years to be delivered. I resisted-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, it did not.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It did. It is in my constituency.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I know it is.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I resisted in my opening remarks citing the children's hospital, but I now feel moved to do so as it is the example of the type of incompetence and waste we have seen writ large. It all has its foundations in a Government culture of utter disregard for public money, which is reflected in the response the Taoiseach gave. He said that all of this is incomprehensible, not acceptable and not good enough and then that someone else has to answer for it. I value the National Gallery and it has to do its job and give its account, but the Deputy is the Taoiseach.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Thank you.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I asked whether this matter was raised at Cabinet.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The time is up, Deputy. Thank you.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I want to know what the Taoiseach and the Government will do-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Thank you, Deputy. Your time is up.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----about this and other instances of waste like this.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I should not say this. To be fair, members of the Deputy's movement have always valued art down through the years, in different ways. I appreciate her close scrutiny of the National Gallery.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Fianna Fáil has fair expertise in strokes themselves.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Politicians in this House cannot be responsible - I say this genuinely - for how individual agencies, such as the National Gallery or an arts centre, procure and deliver. We create boards, which are established by legislation. There are responsibilities-----

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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So it is someone else's job.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Was it like that when you got here?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----on those who decide these things. That is said generally. Politically - the Deputy said let us have a debate - I remember, was it Deputy Ó Snodaigh who spent €50,000 on 200 cartridges? That showed a tremendous focus on value for money, did it not? That €50,000 worth of cartridges was expenditure in this House. Before the Deputy throws stones, she is wrong. The €120,000 is crazy. A scanner should never be bought-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We will move now to-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The other point I will make-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Your time is up.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----is that today I am publishing a report.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach is publishing a report.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We will move to Deputy Bacik of the Labour Party.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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How much was Project Eagle? It was €7 million. Will the Deputy discuss the €7 million? No, because she will be in hot and heavy for the next inquiry, which will cost another €10 million or €15 million. There was never a debate on those issues.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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Yesterday marked the third anniversary of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine. At this time, we remember all those who have lost their lives, homes and families in the brutal war that has ensued. We must reaffirm our solidarity with the people Ukraine at this time.

On this sad anniversary, US President Trump joined with Belarus and North Korea at the United Nations, siding with the dictator Vladimir Putin, and voted against a resolution condemning Russia’s brutal war on Ukraine. It was a dark day for the United Nations and an extraordinary change of policy for the US. It is turning its back on European democracies.

While the US goes rogue, we in Ireland must stand firm against despots and warmongers. We in the Labour Party have welcomed the Taoiseach's commitment to continued solidarity with Ukraine in the face of the Russian aggressor. However, I ask that he now take this opportunity to condemn both President Putin and President Trump because the US vote yesterday was a crude reminder of the dark threat to our international rules-based order. Putin has effectively received an endorsement from the US, despite his illegal war. In the Middle East, we are all very conscious that Netanyahu is flagrantly breaching international law with the brutal bombardment and siege of Gaza and with Israel’s tanks now in the occupied West Bank. At this time, we must maintain our support for international law, peacekeeping, humanitarianism and political - not military - solutions to end global conflict.

We understand that proposals are being brought to the Cabinet next month to end the triple lock. This alarming proposed change appears to be a pet project of the Taoiseach. Over several years now, he has sought different ways to remove or undermine the triple lock. We are concerned that ending the triple lock would have an inherent impact on our military neutrality. It would open the door for members of our Defence Forces to participate in foreign conflicts that lack the protection of the blue beret and a United Nations mandate and that would compromise our neutrality. The Taoiseach has denied that this is the case in the past. If that is so, why is this being proposed?

In a changing world, of course we need to discuss Ireland’s defence and security.

We know that military neutrality comes at a cost but our Defence Forces are desperately under-resourced. As the former line Minister the Taoiseach must be embarrassed that members of the Defence Forces have reported having to sleep in their cars because they could not afford to rent a home on their salary. Why not afford decent pay and conditions to those who are defending our country? Why not act now to address the recruitment and retention crisis in the Defence Forces and invest in our defence infrastructure? The reality is that with or without the triple lock Ireland is highly vulnerable to attack and cyber attack. Closer alignment with NATO would not change that but proper investment would. Does the Taoiseach condemn President Trump for his siding with Russia, and his betrayal of Ukraine and European democracy? Will the Taoiseach commit now to retaining the triple lock and addressing Irish security by investing in our Defence Forces?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I wonder does the Deputy reflect on the absolute contradictions within her presentation. Deputy Bacik is asking me to condemn President Putin and President Trump yet in the very same presentation she is suggesting they should continue to have a freeze on Ireland's participation in peacekeeping. That is exactly the Deputy's proposition.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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No.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is exactly what she has said.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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No, it is not.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The reason we have consistently said that the triple lock needs to change is that the powers on the Security Council should not be able to stop or veto Ireland's participation in a peacekeeping mission. It is absolutely nothing to do with military neutrality as is asserted time and again in this House. Nothing. It is a pragmatic and sensible decision to take. We should control the destiny of how we participate in peacekeeping. We should control those decisions in this House and by the Government of the day. We have a very honourable tradition of peacekeeping in this country. I pay tribute to members of the Defence Forces. Over the last number of years we have significantly increased pay and conditions and it was unfair of the Deputy not to acknowledge that. Over a year ago now we introduced, for example, free secondary care for every member of the Defence Forces. We have increased starting pay in the Defence Forces such that it is significantly better now than many starting pay levels of many other public servants, or indeed people in the private sector. I invite the Deputy to study that. Last year we significantly increased allowances such as doubling of the patrol duty allowance. This was a very significant move for our Naval Service. Last year for the first time since 2017 we turned a corner in having a net increase of recruitment into our Defence Forces. We need much more, of course. We have invested hugely in barracks, in accommodation, and in the naval base. We will continue to invest hugely. There will be a master plan for every barracks, for Baldonnel and for the Naval Service. We have to increase defence capability in this country. We must do it in a progressive way and in a way that makes sense in terms of procurement capacity. There is all sorts of talk about doubling this and doubling that but the bottom line is we have to do it in an organised way and - in the spirit of the moment - a value-for-money way. It is not about throwing money at the defence issue or the capability issue. Procurement takes time. We have to assess what we need and what the vulnerabilities are. Cyber security is one key area and sub-sea cables is another. We are investing in our capability and our resilience in that respect.

We are facing potentially tectonic changes in the global world order. On the other hand, the European Union has resolved, and I agree with this, to continue engagement with the United States Government and Administration, which is crucial to the Europe-US relationship and to the Ireland-US relationship. I believe that President Macron's visit yesterday was a positive step in the right direction in that regard.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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I am glad the Taoiseach acknowledges the need for greater investment in the Defence Forces. We are all very aware of that. On the triple lock, however, the Taoiseach continues to say that retaining the requirement for a UN mandate leaves us at the mercy of Russia or China having a veto. The Taoiseach knows that the legislation underpinning the triple lock enables a UN mandate to give authorisation to the General Assembly and not the Security Council. The Taoiseach knows this. Further, it may be imperfect but the UN is the only legitimate international agency capable of authorising multilateral peacekeeping missions in which we would want to see Irish troops serving. It is imperfect and all of us want to see its processes reformed but nobody, including the Taoiseach, has offered any practical alternative. The Taoiseach spoke at an international conference yesterday and said that for small countries like Ireland “our only ultimate security is rooted in the international rules-based order”. He also commended Ukraine on fighting to uphold the principles of the UN charter. The UN represents an international rules-based order.

President Trump is intent on breaking up that order. He should be condemned for that by all democratic leaders in Europe, because he turned his back on us with his vote at the United Nations yesterday.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am absolutely committed and have articulated the need for a multilateral and rules-based order. The point I made yesterday was that for small open economies or states like Ireland, our ultimate security is not in optimal defence capability, it is in a rules-based order. That is our ultimate security. We support Ukraine because its territorial integrity and sovereignty were violated and the UN Charter was breached. There is no equivocation in that regard. I took the opportunity yesterday to reassert that. That General Assembly notion is just a notion. It is always Security Council resolutions that underpin peacekeeping missions.

We have had significant challenges during our time on the Security Council, even in respect of keeping humanitarian corridors to north-west Syria and Tigre open. Humanitarian corridors are used to get vital aid to people in war zones. We got first-hand experience of the challenges and modern-day reality that exist when we were on the Security Council.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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There are now 14,864 people living in emergency homeless accommodation. This includes 4,510 children who are growing up without a home. Almost every month the numbers climb higher, but record levels of homelessness are now so commonplace that these numbers no longer seem to shock. They rarely appear on the front pages of newspapers. This is because the numbers do not tell the stories of the thousands of people whose lives are being damaged and destroyed.

Last night, thanks to some excellent public-service journalism by Katie Hannon, we heard some of those distressing stories. Chloe Coffey is living in homeless hub with her four-year-old son Jackson. Jackson has complex medical needs. He has already had two surgeries and a third is planned to take place in a month. If nothing changes, Jackson will have open heart surgery and will then be discharged back to the hub in question. There are 300 people, including 220 children, living in this hub. It is clearly not a suitable place for a very sick child to live. Why are Chloe and her son trapped there?

Lisa is living in the same hub, Houben House Family Hub, with her four children, who are aged between nine months and seven years. Lisa is extremely concerned about the mental health impacts on her children. Their attendance at school has already been impacted. She is afraid that they will get depressed.

The homeless crisis is a national scandal. Children and families are not just spending short periods in these hubs; some can be there for up to four years. The damage this is doing, especially to children, is enormous and can be lifelong. Instead of improving, the situation is getting worse. Where is the urgency to address this?

Two of the families featured in last night's programme were made homeless when they were evicted from private rental accommodation. We know that this is the biggest cause of homelessness. In the midst of this crisis, however, the Government will not improve security for renters.

Can the Taoiseach explain why a child who is scheduled for open heart surgery is living in a homeless hub? What can he say to the thousands of families in emergency homeless accommodation, some of whom have been there for years? What is the Government doing to address this disaster? Will it bring Ireland into line with other European countries by introducing a ban on no-fault of evictions?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for raising the issue. It is not acceptable that so many people in our society are in emergency housing accommodation, particularly children. In respect of children or families with significant medical issues, there is recourse to local authorities in the interests of prioritising the housing of such families. I do not know the background to each of the individual cases, and I did not see the programme last evening. In a situation where a child is facing open-heart surgery, there are opportunities for the relevant local authority to prioritise that case. Medical cases are prioritised by local authorities across the country.

The bottom line is that we have to increase supply significantly. Banning no-fault evictions sounds great, but it would ultimately have a negative impact on rental supply and would lead to less supply. One of the challenges we have is to try to get many more people back into the rental market, either in the context of offering short-term lets or alternative forms of letting as opposed to offering secure, long-term rentals to those who are on the housing list. The Government will continue to address this issue in terms of legislation. It has to be addressed.

The supply issue is key, both in terms of the private rental market but also in terms of public and social housing. Without question, there has been a dramatic increase in the number of social houses in the country over the past four years. It has been quite exponential in comparison with anything that has happened since the early 2000s or even before that. There will be a strong and continuing focus on social housing. Since July 2020, approximately 42,000 social homes have been added to the social housing stock. In quarter 3 of last year, we saw the highest level of delivery of new-build social housing since 1975. That is the key. We opened a facility in Mallow last week with the Focus Ireland housing association at which housing for 13 families was provided. These are people who came off the housing list. Some of them had been homeless. If we add in acquisitions and leasing, approximately 12,000 social homes were delivered in 2023. There are many more social houses in the pipeline, starting this year and moving into 2025.

We need a consistent number of new builds of approximately 10,000 per annum to deal with the emergency housing and homeless situation to make sure the time that people spend in an emergency home is as short as possible.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I appreciate that the Taoiseach did not see the programme. If he had, he would have seen the family in question applied for medical priority and had been refused. That decision is under appeal. They are in the same situation that thousands of other families with real medical needs who are not able to have their housing needs met and who are not prioritised.

The Taoiseach dismissed a ban no-fault evictions as if it could not work. In fact, such a ban is the norm in most European countries. Not only is it the norm, but these are countries with much larger rental sectors than ours. Those sectors are successful and have lots of supply. They are the subject of good rent regulation and offer good security for renters. Of course, it could be done here.

The Taoiseach referred to increases in social housing numbers. However, there has been a dramatic increase in the level of homelessness over the past few years. I will repeat my question. What specifically is the Government going to do to turn this around? Month after month, the situation is getting worse. We need new action from the Government. Will it ban no-fault evictions? If not, what is it going to do?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have provided a range of measures in terms of security for renters over the past number of years. The Deputy should acknowledge that. That is not to mention bringing in the tax credit for renters as well, which is an additional help in what is a very difficult situation for renters in the context of cost and prices. The fundamental way to deal with emergency accommodation is to build a consistent level of social housing that can take people off the housing list and out of homelessness.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Says the man who does not build consistent levels of social housing.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is the key. We are at levels now we have not been at for quite a long time. However, it will take a bit of time for that to have the cumulative impact we want. We will continue what we are doing through new social house builds and leasing and acquisitions. Combined, we will try get to approximately 12,000 units in 2025. This will help, particularly in the context of the housing first tenancies that, for example, many approved housing bodies operate. That is a very effective mechanism to get people out of emergency housing.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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The Oireachtas spent €808,000 on a printer that could not fit into the print room. It then spent €230,000 fixing that room in order that it could be fitted in. It also spent €12,000 to store the printer until it could be installed in the print room. The Government spent €22 million on ventilators that never worked and a further €50,000 on storing them. One hundred electric buses were bought but did not move an inch for 18 months because someone forgot to buy electric chargers for them.

Some €300 million has been spent on metro north and not a shovel has been put into the ground. A total of €2.5 billion has been spent on compensation on adverse incidents or mistakes that have happened in the health service over the past ten years and we have seen the cyberattacks so far cost the State €100 million. We will need to spend another €657 million on security upgrades. We must remember that the current Taoiseach was in the Department of the Taoiseach at that time. He spent €15 million on PR that particular year when the National Cyber Security Centre got €5 million for its total budget, which is an incredible situation. We have had €2.5 billion on the children's hospital, 67 vacant OPW properties and 4,000 empty local authority homes, all during a national housing crisis, bike sheds, security huts, the WRC wall, the great wall of Tara, €7 million on an Arts Council IT system that never materialised, and now we have the latest instalment of the Government's waste, which is the National Gallery of Ireland burying a scanner for €120,000. We were told it was essential enough to buy but not essential enough to actually switch on and for seven years the National Gallery searched for a room to fit this scanner. Columbus found the new world faster than the National Gallery of Ireland found a room in which to fit this particular scanner. It is absolutely incredible. There is a significant pattern. We have citizens to the pin of their collar in terms of the taxes they are being charged, the charges they are paying on a daily basis and yet we have this Government incinerating its taxpayers' money on a daily basis on projects that are going way over budget with nobody being held to account. People are sick and tired of it. People are furious with this. It is an incredible situation. There is no doubt now that we are going to have a review and there could have an investigation. We will have a blizzard of words but a drought of any real action. This is the real frustration. I am quite amazed that the Taoiseach has come in to this Chamber today and basically outsourced responsibility for Government waste. He said it is somebody else's fault and asked how the Government could be held to account in relation to it. It is that culture the Taoiseach has articulated today that is at the heart of the fiasco factory that the Government has become. My question to him is: how he will make it stop?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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At the outset the Deputy mentioned €800,000 spent by the Oireachtas. That is his responsibility just as much as it is anybody's on the Government side of the House.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Outsourced the responsibility here.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, I am not.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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The Taoiseach is outsourcing it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, I am not. It is the Oireachtas. That is the Deputy's responsibility. What has he done about it? We created the commission for the Oireachtas. The Deputy either takes it on board or he does not. That is a matter for the Oireachtas in its entirety. It does not justify it. It was wrong but the Deputy should not try to pin everything on the Government.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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You are the Government.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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What about the OPW?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The other point is that this Government was not in government in 2017. This is a small little fact-----

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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2019.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----that has passed the Deputy by. We are now responsible for something then. I am not blaming the Government then. It is perfectly normal to say that old equipment needs to be replaced with new equipment. What is inexcusable is that those in the National Gallery at the time decided to procure this without figuring out how they were going to deploy it and what room they were going to put it in. It is unacceptable.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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What about the OPW?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is why we have the Comptroller and Auditor General to highlight and unearth these issues. That is why the public accounts committee in this House is there. It is there to interrogate and to hold people to account in respect of unacceptable practices and behaviour. That is the bottom line. The Deputy mentioned cybersecurity attacks as if the person or the group - very often criminal organisations-----

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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The Government spent €5 million on the National Cyber Security Centre-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, I did not interrupt the Deputy. He have a great habit of interrupting-----

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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-----while you spent €15 million on PR.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did not interrupt you. You do it all the time, of course. It is a tactic of yours which you learned from your former colleagues. It is a well worn campaigning tactic. The Deputy mentioned cybersecurity attacks as if it is the recipient of those attacks who is responsible for the expenditure. Come on; let us have some balance in the debate. I do not blame the HSE for the cyberattack. There may have been vulnerabilities and maybe we could have been stronger. I blame the Conti group who made that attack on the Irish people through a cyberattack on our entire health service in the middle of Covid. I do not blame public servants who worked extremely hard to deal with it in the interests of the Irish people for that. I do not blame the third level colleges that were vulnerable and that have been attacked by some of these criminal enterprises.

I blame the criminal enterprises. I do not blame a particular university that has been attacked via cyber means. These cyberattacks are attacking the private sector, the public sector and, since Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine, cyberattacks have grown exponentially across Europe. They are connected. They are a form of hybrid warfare on those countries that may disagree with the manner and nature of that attack. It is wrong-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank the Taoiseach.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----that the Deputy should just neatly try to bundle cyberattacks and the cost of them into the broader-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank the Taoiseach. The time is up.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----legitimate issue of value for money in public expenditure, which has to be at the core of everything we do.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Personal responsibility is the engine of accountability and we do not have too far to look for where personal responsibility exists. In the private sector, in tens of thousands of businesses every day, people in their own work have to work to a certain standard. They have to work to ensure that they do not waste money and they have to meet the objectives of their particular business. If they do not, then there is a cost. They could be moved sideways, have their salary reduced or lose their job. That cost, however, is a catalyst to actual change in terms of accountability. The Government has proved beyond a shadow of doubt that it will not accept responsibility. This Government could be transformative in terms of accountability. It could enforce accountability from those is in the top echelons of the Civil Service. It could write into their contracts that they have a responsibility to mind the public purse. It could be written into their contracts that there will potentially be an actual financial cost to them or loss of their jobs if they do not do their jobs. The Government could change the situation whereby citizens are not waking up every morning-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank the Deputy.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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-----to this absolute disgusting waste of money happening in our country-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank Deputy Tóibín. I call the Taoiseach.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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-----but it will not. It will spend its time blaming everybody else but itself.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Deputy's time is up. I thank him. I call the Taoiseach.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I reject that entirely. By the way, I do not accept his analysis of the private sector and accountability. That is a well-worn trope in this House, but, as far as I can see, anyone who looks at the private sector-----

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Well, anyone watching this----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----will see that anyone who is ever in difficulty somehow gets sidelined with a huge sweetheart deal in the private sector. That seems to be the norm. The Deputy should not, therefore, try to make a false comparison between private sector accountability and public sector accountability. I have never bought into it or accepted it. What I will accept, though, is that there absolutely has to be value for money. There has to be a very vigorous and forensic analysis of all spending carried out by the State.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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It is not just about analysis.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is legitimate and proper. That is why we have the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Committee of Public Accounts. That is also why we do have the checks and balances. I looked at a list of the codes of practices and various circulars that have issued to every Department and agency. They are all there. We do need better delivery and implementation by people on the ground working in various agencies in that respect.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Who is responsible for that?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Either do that or abolish every single agency in the country and we certainly are not going to do that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank the Taoiseach. The time is up.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is what the Deputy is trying to say in here if we take that approach to its logical conclusion.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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You are the embodiment of-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is what the Deputy is saying.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank the Taoiseach. I ask him to resume his seat. The time is up.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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By the way, through the Chair, I think the Oireachtas needs to reflect on itself as well.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank the Taoiseach. The time is up.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Behaviour in this House has cost the taxpayer a lot of money as well.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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A Thaoisigh, suigh síos. The time is up.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I saw that programme last week in respect of what happened to Angela Kerins on foot of this House, which cost the taxpayer a lot of money.