Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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66. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform when he will conclude the process of workforce planning referred to in the programme for Government for the public sector; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5124/25]

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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Will the Minister put on the record the position relating to the programme for Government commitment on the process of workforce planning? It is referred to in the document adopted by the House. Will he elaborate on precisely what that means, what the process involves and when he expects to complete that initiative?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. The programme for Government states that this Government will undertake a programme of workforce planning to identify the optimal staffing model within the public sector to meet the needs of our changing demographics. In considering the approach to this, I will have regard to the responsibilities of other Ministers in relation to relevant issues such as recruitment in their respective sectors and taking account of the existing policy context.

Regarding overall public service staffing, the estimate for public service staff numbers for the end of 2025 is just below 428,000 in full-time equivalent terms. This is the highest ever level of employment in the public service and will represent an increase of almost 22,500 full-time equivalents on the latest reported figures of 405,000 for September 2024.

Public service staffing levels are largely managed through a policy of delegated sanction. This was introduced in 2015 to provide offices and Departments with flexibility to manage identified business needs subject to remaining within overall pay ceilings, which are agreed as part of the budget and Estimates process.

Delegated sanction allows Departments to fill vacancies through recruitment, promotion or both, in specified, designated grades up to and including principal officer standard. Delegated sanction is subject to the overall pay bill ceiling as set out in the Revised Estimates Volume. Projected staffing numbers and composition should fall within the parameters of the Department’s pay bill.

With regard to the public service workforce, I highlight a number of policy developments designed to ensure our public services are well positioned and equipped to meet the current and future needs of our citizens. We launched the Better Public Service 2030 transformation strategy, which sets out our vision for a public sector workforce of the future that is skilled, motivated and reflective of the people we serve. This strategy provides a framework for all public service bodies to identify and implement transformation priorities under the workforce and organisation of the future pillar. Public service bodies are working under this framework to ensure a public service that is more diverse, agile and inclusive and reflects Irish society to better serve the Government and the public, ensure that its staff are skilled for the future and to ensure it is an employer of choice by attracting, retaining, upskilling and developing its staff.

I have other items I might go into later.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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I am glad the Minister made the point that the public sector ought to be the employer of choice. It needs to be the exemplar and best practice needs to be shown. A degree of workforce planning in the ranks of junior Ministers has taken place this week. The Minister claimed that because of an expanded population we require additional Ministers of State. We had that debate yesterday. He is right that public sector employment levels will grow to a record high this year and that is to be welcomed. There is a degree of misalignment between his position and that of the Parliamentary Budget Office, and its analysis made available to The Irish Times a couple of days ago. The Minister may have seen the piece published yesterday, where it was estimated there would be 415,000 civil and public servants by the end of this year. He said his figures are that it will be in excess of 420,000. He might explain his understanding of the Parliamentary Budget Office's position. His assessment may include local authority workers and he might clarify that.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I can revert to the Deputy on the specific background to the figures and I am happy to do that. On the overall point, as our demographics change and our population grows, we want to make sure - similar to the Deputy's party - we have increased numbers of people working in the public service and that it is in a place where people want to join it and it is an attractive place to work. That is obviously reflected in overall pay policy, which is central to retaining and recruiting staff into our public service, and supporting upskilling and reskilling members of the public service to meet the future needs and objectives we share in the Oireachtas, and the policies we agree. I am happy to provide the background to the specific figures provided to me in the context of the 428,000 full-time equivalents by the end of 2025. I can send the Deputy a note on that specific matter.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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IBEC has even made an assessment in recent years and has caught up with the position of the Labour Party and others that our State is not only too small to service current economic and social needs, but future economic and social needs and ambitions. I will make two points. The first is that when we talk about agility, the public sector and the private sector need to be agile. There is now competition for talent. It was disappointing to see individual Departments going on solo runs last week on unilateral proposed changes to their policies on blended work. That position has changed in recent days where they have agreed to engage with trade unions. It is important that the public service should be an exemplar of employment practices.

We obviously do not include section 39 workers, who are balloting for industrial action, in our public sector employment figures. There used to be a connection and alignment between their pay grades' terms and conditions and those of equivalent grades in the public service. That is not the case at the moment and that needs to be addressed because they are carrying out the work of essential public services in the health-related activities contracted to them by the State.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I acknowledge the contribution many section 39 workers make in disability, health and social care organisations across our country. As the Deputy will know, there is an industrial relations process in that regard. This is being co-ordinated by the Department of children and disability, which has many section 39 workers under its direct remit. My own Department is engaged with the Department in respect of that. The WRC is the place for that engagement to take place.

On blended working, as the Deputy will know, my Department sets the overall policy. Different Departments then manage it in the context of their specific needs. I have responded to him directly in my replies to recent parliamentary questions on that issue and the ongoing work on blended working.