Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Minister is new in the job at the Department and I ask him to intervene on behalf of lecturers in the British and Irish Modern Music, BIMM, institute. Four of those lecturers are here in the Public Gallery. They were all on the picket lines earlier. I was with them today on Thomas Street. They have been forced to take strike action and mount protests because of absolutely shameful treatment by BIMM. This is a private company but 500, or 80%, of its students are effectively students of the Technological University of Dublin, TUD. This institution is funded to provide this course in commercial modern music. The students apply through the CAO to TUD. Their degrees are ratified - I am sure that is not the right word - by TUD. The degrees are awarded by TUD. TUD has outsourced this degree course to BIMM but these 53 workers have been treated shamefully. Many of them have been working there for a decade or more and they have been told to reapply for their own jobs. There are still as many students and the work is still there but BIMM has decided to tell the workers to reapply for their own jobs and has proposed that most of them would become freelance, when they were previously employed and on conditions that are about 50% of what they were previously employed under. Some of them would be given a "yellow pack" grade of lectureship at about 50% of what they were paid before. This is a disgraceful way to treat these people who are delivering an important course in music. We are asking for an intervention with TUD to end the shameful treatment of these workers.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I welcome the workers here tonight. It is not easy to come here after being on a picket line for two days in the cold. BIMM is exploiting the talent and creativity of these musicians and lecturers. The BIMM website boasts about unrivalled industry connections, experienced tutors and how the institute opens doors into the music industry. The restructuring that is happening is classic race to the bottom, Uber-isation of skilled workers, to drive their wages and conditions down and make more money for the college. It is to replace the existing lecturers with lesser pay and conditions. As it is, the BIMM staff are paid less than other lecturers. This falls very much within the Minister's brief. When we look at how this college is set up, we see that students who want to study music apply through the CAO, as was said. They apply to TUD and they get a publicly funded SUSI grant if they qualify but they are in a private college. This is because TUD took the decision in 2010 to outsource this course to BIMM. The Minister has the power to look into taking over this college tomorrow if he likes, running it in the same way as all the other colleges in the country are run, with equal pay and conditions for the workers, unless, that is, the Minister supports the outsourcing, underfunding and driving down of pay and conditions in colleges.

There is also a need for solidarity from other workers. For example, the workers told me yesterday that while they were on the picket line the classes were being provided online by people who have chosen to scab on them. That is a lesson for teachers and others. It is critical that the Minister intervenes here to tell TUD and BIMM to stop and drop this disgraceful plan to drive down these workers.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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This is my first opportunity to address the House since my appointment to this very important brief. It is an honour to hold it and I look forward to working on the sector with the Deputies opposite and all Deputies of the House. I acknowledge that Deputy Boyd Barrett has an interest in the area of higher education, innovation and research, the pursuit of curiosity and the pursuit of knowledge. We have debated these topics in the past and I look forward to continuing that engagement on this very important topic.

I thank the Deputies for raising the issue of the situation at BIMM. I anticipated that it would ventilated before the Dáil. It is welcome that this is happening. I welcome the workers and thank them for being here. I certainly am very sympathetic to their plight. I have been reading about the situation and I have been reading media reports about the proposed restructuring, as it is labelled, and the industrial dispute that has flowed from that. I do not like what I have read and I am concerned about the situation and the impact on staff and students. As the Deputies are aware and as has been acknowledged at the outset, the difficulty is that BIMM is a private company. Neither I, nor any other Minister, have any statutory role or powers to exercise in this matter. I understand and take the point that has been made that TUD is engaged in collaborative provision with BIMM to deliver a small number of programmes. From what I have been told, the arrangement seems to include academic quality assurance and protection of learner arrangements. However, it is BIMM acting as a private provider that appears to have responsibility for staffing, organisational structures and the working terms and conditions of staff. I looked at the BIMM website and it declares that it is a private limited company because it gives the Companies Registration Office, CRO, number and so forth, so it is a private entity. I also note that it has operations across Europe and the UK. Berlin, Hamburg, Birmingham, Manchester and Bristol are all listed as sites where it operates.

Furthermore, it does not receive any funding from my Department or from the State, that I am aware of. Issues pertaining to the governance of the terms and conditions of the staff employed do not fall within the remit of my Department. That notwithstanding, like any Member of the House, I am concerned anytime there is the suggestion of redundancies, be it at BIMM or at any other company or organisation in the State. I understand completely that the staff of BIMM are worried by management proposals. Apparently BIMM is saying that its actions are in the best interests of the students and the organisation. I am not in a position to assess those claims. It would probably be unhelpful for me to get into trying to arbitrate or adjudicate on the dispute. My primary concern is for the students and staff, based on what I have read and what has been reported. I have been following the issue. The reality, however, is that there are very few, if any, levers available to me as Minister to intervene in any industrial relations dispute, particularly one that involves a private sector organisation.

I strongly urge all parties - with this being directed more at the company than the workers, who have made their availability known - to engage in the industrial relations machinery of the State. The Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, stands ready to engage. I encourage all parties to think seriously about where the path leads them next. That may be a very helpful avenue to pursue a resolution. I am sure the Deputies and the workers will be interested to hear that the president of TUD has agreed to meet with the relevant union, the Irish Federation of University Teachers, IFUT, to discuss the concerns. That is a welcome development and I hope that will perhaps assist in moving the dispute forward.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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TUD is publicly funded. Some 80% of the students at BIMM are on courses provided by TUD. It gives €3 million in direct funding to BIMM and the SUSI grants and other moneys the students receive go to BIMM. It is public money. The Minister does have responsibility. He cannot wash his hands of this. Given his responsibility for higher education, the Minister has an interest in ensuring that every single teacher and lecturer working in higher education is treated properly and not subjected to a race to the bottom and to breaches of their employment rights. The idea that people would be forced to reapply for their own jobs and become so-called freelance having been employees for years is simply bogus self-employment. That is orchestrated, pre-meditated bogus self-employment. It should not be allowed in degree courses that are being run by TUD. The Minister cannot wash his hands of this. He has a responsibility, as does TUD, to ensure - by the way, it is in the contract with BIMM - that employment rights are respected. BIMM will not even meet IFUT and it has refused to go to the WRC. The Minister needs to crack the whip and intervene in this on behalf of the workers.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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In his reply the Minister said that TUD has engaged with BIMM on a number of courses but quality assurance, blah, blah, blah, is all interlinked. How can there be quality assurance if people's pay and conditions are driven down? This is the Minister's responsibility. TUD could employ the staff at BIMM if the Minister gave that direction and made it happen. He could make that happen. A lot of the Minister's answer seemed to be trying to find ways that would prevent him from getting involved. The Minister needs to be looking for ways that he can get involved. A very strong statement from the Minster for higher education in Ireland in opposition to what BIMM is doing would carry a lot of weight as well.

It would certainly offer a lot of strength and solidarity to these workers. Would the Minister even agree to issue that?

Another thing the Government could do is make union recognition absolutely mandatory. For many people who are in a union, their employer, such as the one we are discussing, does not really negotiate with them.

I appeal to the Minister not to play Pontius Pilate but to look for ways he can help these workers and the students.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I absolutely share the Deputies' frustration. Deputy Coppinger called for me to make a statement but I have made statements, as she will see if she listens back to what I have said and looks at the Official Report. I have shared the Deputies' concerns-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Publicly.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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-----and expressed serious concerns for the position of the staff and students. I am not happy about what is obtaining; let us be clear about that. There are limits, and the Deputies are well acquainted and familiar with the industrial relations machinery and how these disputes work. When a private entity is in a dispute with staff, there are very few levers a Minister can deploy. Deputy Coppinger suggested a couple, such as the State possibly taking over the college, which, with respect, is a bit extreme and perhaps not practical at this time.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is a TUD course.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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The realistic powers that may be available to any Minister to intervene in an industrial relations dispute involving a private company are limited, but that is exactly what the industrial relations machinery of the State is there for.

Having said that, I had a look at the BIMM website and went through some documentation that is publicly available, and there is something the college calls a terms and conditions sheet, which is a sort of a contract with students, within which it cites its obligations to students, including the provision of courses, reasonable care and skill and so on. I remind the college of that obligation, which it has stated on a contractual basis, that it has to its students. Perhaps that is something it will reflect on. IFUT has declared its willingness to engage, and I encourage both sides to engage in the industrial relations machinery of the State. That is what it is there for. It can provide a solution to this issue, which I very much hope is brought to a head soon for the benefit of the staff, the students and all involved.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Minister could crack the whip with TUD as well.