Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I hope they do not find out I am here; they might stop me talking.

It is very important to debate this issue here tonight. Many people in Kerry have been perished from the cold when the houses that were basically heated by electricity lost power. Can the Minister of State imagine young families trying to heat a bottle for babies? Simple things became an awful ordeal. Water pumps did not work because of the electricity being out. In times gone by it would not have been so bad because people could boil the kettle of water or hang it on the crane like my grandmother did and it was boiling all the time and she even had the door open.

However, this whole thing has gone mad. The whole thing is overkill. They are advised to take the chimneys out of the houses and it is totally and absolutely wrong because the chimney was the most important component of the house. It was there to take the smoke out, but it was also there to take the foul air out. None of this is needed because there is plenty of insulation in the houses being built today. I passed through the village of Kilgarvan. There is a scenario where the roofs have been taken off three council houses that are void and vacant, and people are crying to get into them. The roofs have been taken off to take out the chimney. They have to take off the back side of the roof to get the chimney out and this is what they are ordered to do.

The purpose of this is to get the house fitted and ready for the next tenants, but this is the delay. In Gneevgullia, it took five years to get three houses reinstated because the Department demands that the chimney is taken out before the house is made liveable again. It is unbelievable that chimneys are being taken out of houses that were lived in until the other day. It costs any amount of money. I must presume it costs at least €100,000. The cost for three houses would build another new house or perhaps one and a half new houses, no bother in the world.

I am asking for common sense. We will forget about the way this came about. I want the Government to rectify it. There is no need in the wide world for it. If people who, all of a sudden in the snow and frost, had electric heating all around them and everything was at the touch of a button, had a simple stove, they could boil the kettle, fry or boil an egg or fry a rasher and a sausage. They would not be hungry. However, they were cold and miserable and some of them did not even have water. On top of that, they had no access until the Kerry Mountain Rescue Team came to their assistance. It is unbelievable what is happening today.

I wish the Minister of State, Deputy O'Sullivan, and all the Ministers well in their new posts. It is important for the sake of the people of Ireland that they do well. Common sense must prevail, however. The Minister of State should forget this racket or caper of taking chimneys out of houses because they are insulated enough. Please leave them something for times of emergency when they need food or need to boil the kettle, a pot of spuds or whatever. Leave them something as a back-up.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Healy-Rae for raising this matter. It gives me an opportunity to say for the first time that my heart goes out to the people affected right across the country, especially on the western seaboard, many of whom have, for almost two weeks, gone without either power, running water and the bare essentials. I cannot begin to imagine how difficult that is for them. Luckily, west Cork, where I am from, was not hit as bad as other areas. Some parts of Kerry were clearly hit pretty bad and we have to take cognisance of and acknowledge that.

I thank wholeheartedly the emergency services, local authority staff, fire crews and medical staff. Across the board, their response to this emergency has been incredible. In particular, I pay tribute to the nurses and staff of some hospitals. On the night of the storm, before the worst winds hit, staff and nurses in hospitals throughout Ireland, including Clonakilty Community Hospital, Bantry Hospital, Cork University Hospital and, I am sure, hospitals in County Kerry, got mattresses out and stayed overnight to ensure patients received the best care. I want to acknowledge that.

On the point Deputy Healy-Rae put across incredibly well, I am sure lots of people along the western seaboard who have fireplaces or stoves were very glad they had them. Electric heat pumps are the way to go in electrifying heat and having efficient homes but that will be at a point where we have a steady and reliable grid and supply of electricity. People across the country were glad they have stoves and fireplaces and the Deputy put that eloquently.

In response to the Deputy's point, there is no requirement, from this Department at least, to remove chimneys. That is set in stone, as I will explain later.

The technicality involved is that all new dwellings must comply with building regulations, the aim of which is to provide for the safety and welfare of people in and about buildings and, in addition, to achieve 60-year durability for all key elements. The building regulations set out the minimum requirements for the construction of new buildings and certain works to existing buildings.

The climate action plan commits to reducing the use of fossil fuels in buildings and that the energy performance requirements for new buildings are set out in accordance with the nearly zero energy building, NZEB, requirements of the energy performance of buildings directive. NZEB means a building that has a very high energy performance with nearly zero or a very low amount of the energy required covered to a significant extent by energy from renewable sources. As NZEB dwellings have a very high fabric performance, the heat will typically be retained for a longer period in an NZEB dwelling than in an average dwelling.

Building regulations require new dwellings to achieve an overall energy and carbon emissions performance which is calculated using the dwelling energy assessment performance published by the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland.

Secondary heating systems such as single room solid fuel stoves using renewable wood can still be installed in new housing under building regulations once the overall energy performance requirement for the dwelling is achieved. That speaks to the Deputy's point.

Overall, modern highly insulated houses retain the heat for much longer than traditional uninsulated houses and are more resilient during power cuts, while, at the same time, reducing carbon emissions from the built environment.

With regard to the retrofit of local authority homes, in 2021 a new holistic approach was applied to the local authority energy efficient retrofit programme. This was designed around a programme for Government commitment and led by the Department for the Environment, Climate and Communications.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State for the reply. I join him in thanking all the emergency services and all the people who went out in the dark and wet, night and day, trying to get the electricity going again and all the people in the health services, especially those who visited old people - home helps, etc. - for all the great work they did.

The Minister of State said there are no regulations preventing stoves being put in to new houses. To get a loan and to achieve the BER rating that the banks demand, whatever business of the banks that is, people cannot have a stove or chimney. That is the hard fact.

Why will the Department not give the money to the local authority - in our case, Kerry County Council - to retrofit houses? They will not qualify for the retrofit grant if they do not take out the chimney. I am asking the Minister of State to deal with that and not to have the scenario where it is taking 12 months for householders to draw down the grant. One of the implications of that is that they have to take out the chimney. That requirement will have to be removed.

I am depending on the Minister of State and the Government to sort this out because it is costing double or triple. If these three houses had a rub of paint and a few necessary things done to them, they would have been roaring again after two months at most. It has now been 12 months or more. How long more will this take? It will not happen in a couple of days. Three houses have been gutted in Kilgarvan village to take the chimneys out of them. Please stop this. I ask the Minister of State to do just that.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South-West, Fianna Fail)
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I take the Deputy's point. I have the response here and it is quite clear on the energy efficient retrofit programme, EERP. I will read it out because it should answer the Deputy's question. Works eligible under the Department's revised EERP include attic-cavity wall insulation or external wall insulation, where required, window and door replacement, heat pump installation as well as ancillary and associated works. I will repeat the following line: the removal of chimneys is not required by this Department.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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The Department is asking the local authority to take out the chimneys.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South-West, Fianna Fail)
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We will send the Deputy a note on that.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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They are not doing it off their own bat, surely.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Let the Minister of State answer.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South-West, Fianna Fail)
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That is underlined by the point that building regulations are performance based and technology neutral. There is nothing preventing new dwellings from including fireplaces or chimneys and it is possible to comply with building regulations when these are installed. That is pretty clear. We can send the Deputy a further note on that.

New rated homes are highly insulated and will retain heat for longer than traditional poorly insulated houses. There are also multiple benefits during normal operation of improved comfort, improved indoor air quality and carbon emissions reductions.

Local authorities, supported by the national emergency co-ordination group, are co-ordinating a local level a humanitarian assistance response to the needs of people who have significantly been impacted by the storm. More than 280 emergency response hubs have been set up in the counties most affected by service outages.

Emergency response hubs are assisting people with basic needs such as water, hot food, phone charging, broadband access and shower facilities. A key focus is ensuring the welfare of vulnerable or isolated people and making sure supports or resources are directed to where they are most needed.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae has made his point well and has outlined the difficulties that people in Kerry and right throughout the western seaboard are having. As he outlined, there were many people who were happy they had a stove of some sort that would heat water but it is pretty clear there in black and white that there is nothing required by the Department that says chimneys have to be removed or that they cannot be installed once they are compliant.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Will the Minister of State tell us why it is happening in Kilgarvan so, and why they could not find that out-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputy, please, that is your question time.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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My questions have not been answered.