Dáil debates
Tuesday, 7 November 2023
Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate
School Accommodation
9:30 pm
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Harkin raised the third Topical Issue. The Deputy wants to discuss the application for additional schools accommodation by Sooey National School in County Sligo.
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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Just before that I ask the Ceann Comhairle to give me ten seconds.
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Well I will have to when I gave everyone else plenty of seconds.
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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I am well aware of the case of Dan Brennan because I was in the European Parliament's Petitions Committee when Dan Brennan made his case there on several occasions. I am from Sligo so I had no political interest in him or what was happening. The Minister talks about no new evidence but he should review the old evidence. As many of the Deputies said, it is the same old line coming from the Department again. There are lots of discrepancies, gaps and unanswered questions. If the Minister reviews that evidence then he will make progress. I add my voice to that.
I have taken enough time from Sooey National School so I had better get back to that. I want to raise the issue of the provision of one or perhaps two autism spectrum disorder, ASD, classes in Sooey National School, which is located in County Sligo. It is one of those schools that is a major success because as a rural national school it has grown from 12 pupils in 1998 to 117 in 2023. That is pretty astonishing and it speaks for itself in terms of the excellence of the quality of the teaching and education, and the huge community support. It is in the context of that community support that we see that over two years ago, when a field behind the school became available and was put up for sale, the local community came together and decided to purchase it so that it could be used for community purposes and the school. With the patience of the person who was selling it, that will be paid off over a period of eight years. The point I am making is that this a whole-community effort.
In the meantime, the National Council for Special Education contacted all of the schools in County Sligo and asked them if they could provide ASD classes in their schools by September 2024.
Even though there are no pupils right now in Sooey National School who require this service, nonetheless the school responded to the request and it said it would be very happy to support children with autism from the locality. It immediately drew up an application and sent it to the Department of Education under the additional school accommodation, ASA, scheme for a general purpose, GP, room and two autism spectrum disorder, ASD, suites. That application was sent in last February. The principal contacted the Department several times post February but heard nothing back. Last September the special educational needs organiser, SENO, contacted the principal to ask how the new build was progressing because they assumed everything was going ahead but of course nothing was happening. Subsequent to that, several meetings took place and it was made very clear by the SENO that there was a real need for two ASD classes in Sooey. Subsequently, the Department's building unit contacted the school and offered it a modular building. That is all it offered the school. What it told the school to do was to put a mainstream class into the modular building and rearrange a mainstream classroom as a classroom for an ASD class. There was no hall, no ASD suite and no sensory room. In fact, there were no proper facilities at all for autistic children. Subsequently, the board of management looked at the Department's proposal and said it would be a completely unfair to offer children with autism a classroom and nothing else for their full-time education. While the board is willing to manage with a modular unit while an ASD suite is being built, it will not accept it without a further commitment to an ASD suite. I would be very grateful if the Minister of State could give me an update on the position.
9:40 pm
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Minister of State, Deputy O'Brien, for being here to deal with this issue.
Joe O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Green Party)
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I thank Deputy Harkin for raising this matter as it provides me with an opportunity to clarify the position on the Department of Education's planning for school accommodation for children with special educational needs, specifically in regard to the application for additional accommodation made by Sooey National School, County Sligo.
The Deputy may be aware that Sooey National School is a Catholic primary school. The school had an enrolment in September 2022 of 120 pupils and, in September 2023, of 117 pupils. As of September 2023, the school has one teaching principal, four mainstream class teachers and two special education teachers. The school is in the Coola Cross school planning area and there are seven primary schools and one post-primary school in this school planning area.
The Deputy may also be aware that a building project for the provision of one mainstream en suite classroom and one special education teacher room, along with assisted users' WC, was completed at Sooey National School in 2021. The school submitted an additional ASA application to the Department of Education in February 2023 requesting funding for SEN accommodation, an outdoor classroom, an all-weather pitch, staff and bus parking and a general purpose room. The purpose of the ASA scheme is to ensure essential mainstream and special education classroom accommodation is available to cater for pupils enrolled each year where the need cannot be met by the school's existing accommodation or by available accommodation at other schools in the area. General purpose rooms are outside the scope of the ASA scheme.
The Deputy will be aware the Department has broadened its delivery streams and is utilising modern methods of construction, including modular accommodation, as well as traditional construction delivery methods. Modular accommodation has particular advantages in terms of overall timelines and climate impact in that it does not generally have a reliance on fossil fuels. In overall terms, it is important to have a range of delivery mechanisms for delivering school accommodation to support the current very strong and ambitious roll-out of school building projects. This is of particular relevance given the overall challenging construction sector market. A number of factors are considered by the Department of Education in determining the most appropriate construction method to meet a school's accommodation requirements, including the timing and duration of that accommodation need, and other school-specific factors.
Furthermore, the Department continues to undertake forward planning to meet the accommodation needs of increasing demographics at post-primary level. In addition, the Department also works very closely with the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, on forward planning for increased special education provision in the form of additional special classes and special school places.
In planning and providing for additional school accommodation, the Department must also have regard to construction inflation pressures and competing demands on suppliers of modular accommodation and project management services. In response to these challenges, both in terms of demand for accommodation and costs, the Department must prioritise spending and seek to achieve value for money in line with the public spending code and the national development plan framework. In general, demographics have been falling at primary level and are due to continue to decrease. Therefore the Department considers it prudent to maximise the use of existing spare accommodation capacity at primary level in the first instance before considering any applications for further accommodation needs. On the provision of primary special classes, the shared preference of both the Department and the National Council for Special Education is to use and reconfigure existing school accommodation to provide special classes.
Officials in the Department of Education have been engaging with Sooey National School regarding its application for additional accommodation. A previously proposed solution was not agreed by the school and the Department is now reconsidering the requirement for additional accommodation in the context of any wider opportunities to meet the need for special classes in the area.
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State. I have had a look through his response. He tells me that, back in 2021, a new mainstream en suite classroom and special education teacher room, etc., was completed at Sooey National School. That is absolutely correct. The school got rid of its prefabs. Basically, what the Department is asking of the school is to now go back to having prefabs or modular buildings. The school is not going to accept that. The Minister of State also tells us that modular accommodation has advantages in terms of overall timelines. He is absolutely right. It is faster but the question is whether it provides an adequate service or suite for autistic children. He also talks about demographics falling at primary level. While that may be true generally, I just told him a few minutes ago that the numbers have increased in Sooey National School from 12 to 117 in the past 25 years, so he cannot use that as a reason - I will not use the word "excuse" - not to ensure there is a proper building for autistic children that will serve their educational needs.
The Minister of State did say the Department is reconsidering the requirement for additional accommodation in the context of any wider opportunities to meet the needs for special classes in the area, but I am not really sure what that means. I do hope it means the Department is engaging with the board of management and the principal in Sooey National School, who are ready, willing and able to provide two new ASD classrooms. They have provided the land already if the Department will work with them. Sooey is just 13 km from Sligo town. It is close to Collooney, Ballygawley, Ballysadare, Ballintogher, and Riverstown. There is a real need for these classes and Sooey is the ideal location. The Minister of State has it on a plate so far if he will just work with the board of management.
Joe O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Green Party)
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As I have outlined, the Department has been engaging with this school regarding its application for additional accommodation. While the provision of a general purpose room is outside the scope of the additional school accommodation scheme, the Department has liaised with the school regarding the potential provision of accommodation for children with special educational needs. As Deputy Harkin will appreciate, the provision of school places, including for children with special educational needs, is a priority for the Department of Education and the NCSE, and the Department will continue to work to ensure there are sufficient special classes available to meet the needs of pupils in the Coola Cross school planning area and across County Sligo.
As is very often the case with Topical Issue matters, we learn a lot more when the Deputy presents the case in a little bit more detail. Deputy Harkin has set out some detail that I was not aware of that I can take back to the responsible Minister.