James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister of State for being present. It is great to have this question selected before the summer recess.

I had a fascinating meeting in my constituency office, of which this Topical Issue is the brainchild. I met with a retired public health worker who had worked as a midwife. Without going into too many specifics, it was one of the most interesting exchanges I have had since election to this House. They explained how they worked a lifetime in the health service, reached the age of 60 and retired. They worked, paid tax and made their contribution to their workplace. Anyone who works in a healthcare setting around maternity healthcare knows it is an extraordinarily privileged role but a challenging one. They see many joyous occasion in people’s lives and, from time to time, unfortunately, great tragedy.

I was struck by what they told me about the process around the supplementary pension, which is available to retirees to make up the shortfall in pension during the period between the date of retirement and eligibility for the State contributory pension. For retired healthcare workers, this system is key, as it is for any civil servant. I had not really realised that, when it comes to eligibility, there is a requirement for them to sign on the live register, whether it is down the route of the jobseeker's allowance or other payments. It unfortunately requires regular clocking in and being on the live register, which is demeaning for somebody who has worked all their lives and is at what is supposed to be at the end of their career. Midwifery is an incredibly challenging job involving unusual hours and massive stress and retiring at 60 is not to be necessarily frowned upon where people are eligible for it.

I wholeheartedly stand with the lady who came to the office in her mission to see how this could be changed. If somebody has worked all their lives, it is hard for them to have to collect social welfare until they come to the retirement age and to have to go in. The jobseeker's allowance is not necessarily appropriate. It is nothing disparaging against people on jobseeker's allowance. It is traumatic for anybody to lose their job but people’s mindset is often, for good reason, such that they do not take pleasure in having to queue up and sign forms for the simple thing of retiring. That to me is unacceptable. It is something we should look at as a State, recognise and try to solve.

I understand the difficulty when it comes to changing these systems. I found it fascinating during the pandemic when it came to adjusting the pandemic unemployment payment, employment wage subsidy scheme and other schemes. I was never aware of the extraordinary costs involved in changing the system. The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, was very informative and helpful. I pay tribute to her, as I always try to do. This one is different because it is a long-lasting issue that, in time, people will come to benefit from. I would like to see what the response is from the Department. I thank the Minister of State for stepping in for the Minister and providing the answer to the House. This individual had a fabulous case. It is something I admit I was not au fait with. I am only 26. It will be interesting to see the Department's response.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, has overall policy responsibility for public service occupational pension schemes payable to retired public servants.

For all new entrants to the public service on or after 6 April 1995, the date of introduction of full social insurance for public servants who now pay class A PRSI, and before 1 January 2013, the date of introduction of the single public service pensions scheme, their pension is integrated. An integrated pension scheme looks at the State pension as part of the total pension package promised to employees on retirement. One reason for this is that both employers and employees make PRSI contributions and these entitle scheme members to social insurance benefits, including the State pension contributory, SPC.

Integration is used as a means of taking into account the benefits payable under the social welfare system to calculate: the amount of pension payable from a pension scheme, so that the combined pension from both sources - State pension and occupational pension - is at the level aimed at in the scheme's design; and the level of contributions payable by the employee towards the cost of their occupational pension, so that the contributions payable to an occupational pension scheme reflect the offset from scheme benefits to allow for the State pension. Typically this is achieved by calculating pension benefits based on this lower pensionable salary at retirement and, therefore, the pension payment of a post-95 public servant comprises three components: a reduced public service occupational pension payable by the public service employer; social insurance benefits, payable, subject to eligibility, by the Department of Social Protection; and, where the full rate of SPC is not payable, a supplementary pension equivalent to a non-integrated pension, which is payable, subject to eligibility, by the public service employer.

Where a public servant does not qualify for the SPC or qualifies for a social insurance benefit at less than the value of the SPC, they may be entitled to an occupational supplementary pension, subject to eligibility criteria. In addition, the granting of an occupational supplementary pension depends upon a number conditions, as follows: one, the retired public servant is not in paid employment; two, the retired public servant, due to no fault of their own, fails to qualify for social insurance benefits or qualifies for a benefit at less that the value of the SPC; and, three, the retired public servant must have reached minimum pension age or retired on grounds of ill-health.

The second condition is important to ensure no duplication of payments from public funds. To verify this condition, prior to payment of the occupational supplementary pension, a retired public servant must engage with the Department of Social Protection and obtain proof that they have exhausted any relevant benefits for which they may be eligible under the social insurance system.

A significant number of occupational pension schemes, both private and public sector, make an allowance for the State pension when providing a pension from their pension scheme.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate the Minister of State's response but it does not really answer my question. I acknowledge that it is not his Department or role and that the response is from the Minister, Deputy Donohoe. I have here the forms for the supplementary pension allowance application. They include a statement from the applicant indicating that he or she understands it will be necessary to provide documentary evidence for the continued payment of the supplementary pension each year until the contributory State pension becomes payable. That is just wrong. It does not fit and it is not right. We need to acknowledge that if someone has given his or her career to working in the health service or in different roles in the Civil Service, that condition is a little unreasonable.

It comes down to personal dignity. Many of those who have been so fortunate to have remained in employment throughout their career, and I recognise that not everybody is so lucky, take great pride in that. People who have spent their careers in the health service do not want to have to queue in a social welfare office to provide documentary evidence that they are no longer in employment.

There are other parts of the form with which I fundamentally disagree. This was only properly brought to my attention recently. As a young man in education, I did not know this was in place but I would like to see it being changed. I recognise that to change systems in Revenue or the Department of Social Protection is complex and they are not always as easy to fix as people may think but changing this would mean a lot to many people who have retired. They are still alive and kicking and have only entered into their retirement in their 60s and 70s. I would love to see the system being changed. I hope the Minister of State will be so kind as to bring that message to the Ministers for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and Social Protection.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform is aware there are some issues concerning the procedures for qualifying for the payment of an occupational supplementary pension. However, reducing the administrative burden is likely to include a technological solution that will require some time to agree and implement. The Department will commence a consultative process with stakeholders to establish if there is a way in which we can streamline the process involved in accessing the pension and dealing with some of those related issues.