Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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24. To ask the Minister for Health if he will provide an update on the pay claims by section 39 organisation workers following the meeting of officials from his Department, the HSE, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and Tusla with union representatives; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [26663/23]

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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I am seeking an update on outstanding pay claims for workers in section 39 organisations. This is an issue on which we have been supporting the trade union movement. It goes back to the problem with recruitment and retention right across our healthcare provision, including the voluntary sector.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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I acknowledge the hugely important role section 39 organisations and their workers play in our health and social care services. They are absolutely essential in providing services, including to people with disabilities and older people in the community.

A process of engagement to examine the pay of workers in community and voluntary organisations was committed to by the Government in October last year, as the Deputy referenced. While the Government is committed to the process, it should be noted that the section 39 organisations, which are largely non-profit, are privately owned and run. The terms and conditions of employment of staff in these organisations are ultimately between the employer and the employee. However, we all know that is highly contingent on State funding.

On 17 April, officials from my Department, the HSE, Tusla and the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth met with union representatives under the auspices of the WRC. This engagement sought to understand and explore the scope of the unions' claim for pay rises for community and voluntary sector workers. A follow-up engagement took place at the WRC on 15 May, with a further up follow-up engagement due to take place less than two weeks from now, on 12 June. As this is an ongoing industrial relations process, I am sure the Deputy will appreciate that I am limited in what I can say.

It is important to note that none of the organisations attending the exploratory talks are the employers of the staff in question. The Department notes that it is a cross-sectoral issue and that we need to engage across government and in the round on it.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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It is not an easy issue and we are aware of the complexity of it. It is, however, important for us to keep the pressure up. These workers took pay cuts back during the economic crash, in line with public sector workers. They have not had their pay restored. We are looking at the structure of the CDNTs, which we all want to see be successful. CDNTs are provided across HSE services and across, section 38 and section 39 organisations. The vacancy rates are at 34%, the equivalent of 707 whole-time equivalent posts, given some of the more recent figures. They fluctuate and we hope they will be going in a better direction. Section 39 voluntary workers are working in CDNTs and looking into their next region where workers are doing the same job but working for the HSE and on better rates. We all accept there is a lack of fairness there. It is not easily resolved. I am glad there is a process but I would ask, and I will continue to raise this, that the Minister and the other Departments will stick with this process to try to get a resolution for pay justice here.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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There is a process and there has been agreement, as the Deputy will be aware on the biggest 300, which was very welcome. Initially, it was the first 50, then it was another 250. We need to find a way to deal with this while balancing two things. On the one hand they are private organisations but, on the other, we largely fund them. We cannot divorce ourselves from their ability to pay their staff. When we looked across the organisations, the relative rates of pay and cuts that came in during the FEMPI period were different. There is quite a broad range there that does need to be looked at but, yes, we are fully committed to the process.