Dáil debates

Thursday, 25 May 2023

Ceisteanna ar Sonraíodh Uain Dóibh - Priority Questions

Prison Service

9:00 am

Photo of Pa DalyPa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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1. To ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality the measures he is taking to remediate the current prison overcrowding crisis. [24679/23]

Photo of Pa DalyPa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Can the Minister for Justice to outline the measures he is taking to remediate the current prison overcrowding crisis? The depth of the crisis was indicated to me recently when I spoke to a Garda regarding the proposed increased sentences for assaults. His response was quite cynical, in that he asked where we were going to put those who are convicted. In his experience, a lot of people are getting temporary release, the prisons are full and that it is almost pointless to increase sentences.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The first thing I want to say in regard to the change in the law to protect peace officers and provide maximum sentences is that everybody in the House, including the Deputy, shares the view that it is important that we put legislation in place to send out a very clear message and solidarity from this, the people's House, with those on the front line that it simply will not be tolerated if anybody tries to attack or assault a member of An Garda Síochána or ram their vehicle or attack any other emergency worker. I know we are united in that overall view.

Regarding the broader point on prison overcrowding, I assure Deputy Daly that we are committed to building stronger and safer communities. To do that we need to progress policies aimed at reducing offending, diverting people away from the criminal justice system and, where appropriate, providing effective rehabilitation. My colleague, Minister of State, Deputy James Browne, is leading a lot of good work in the Department on that. We are focused on rehabilitation and reducing offending.

Alongside that, we need to continue to invest in the prison estate and ensure it is modern and fit-for-purpose. We need to ensure it has capacity. Sometimes people talk about it as though it is either-or; it is not. We need penal reform, but we also need to expand prison capacity. Pressure on the system has increased because our population has grown and is continuing to grow. Increasing judicial resources and Garda numbers will also have an impact on the prison system.

It is also the case that Covid impacted on the operation of our criminal justice system. We are still dealing with the fallout of the pandemic as the system tries to return to some degree of normality.

As the Deputy will be aware, a number of prison projects have been completed in recent years, adding to the capacity in men's and women's prisons in Limerick and the training centre in Mountjoy. In addition, I recently received Government approval to try to progress four short-term capital projects, one in Castlerea, one in Cloverhill, one in the midlands and one in Mountjoy Prison. Together, these projects will deliver a minimum of 620 additional spaces. I am now engaging with the Minute for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, with view to progressing an agreed schedule of capital bills. Our revised Irish Prison Service capital strategy will also be finalised this year.

Photo of Pa DalyPa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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The situation in the female prison in Limerick is unsustainable. According to recent statistics, it is currently at 179% capacity. Overcrowding in the male and female prisons in Mountjoy means occupancy of 106% and 113%, respectively. That does not take into account the 87 prisoners currently on temporary release.

A a few weeks ago the open prisons in Shelton Abbey and Loughan House were still more than 90% full. The crisis has been well flagged by bodies such as the Irish Penal Reform Trust, IPRT, and the Prison Officers' Association. Prison overcrowding undermines the health and safety of prison staff and prisoners, making it difficult to run prisons effectively and options for moving more dangerous prisoners become restricted. During the pandemic, as the Minister said, there were some sensible and innovative approaches taken to reducing the numbers and we need to look at those. They include restorative justice, community sanctions, community return and other options, especially for short committals, which the governors of the prisons tell us make no difference whatsoever to the lives of prisoners.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I think we both agreed on the issue of people with short sentences and how we can try to help them be diverted from prisons in the first place. With my other hat is on as Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, I am delighted that this week the Government agreed to establish a new prison education task force which will be jointly chaired by me and the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, between now and the end of the year. It is an important step to see what we can do to help people when they get out of prison not to reoffend, reduce recidivism rates and try to stop the children of prisoners ending up in prison. People are six or seven times more likely to end up in prison if their parents have been there.

I have spoken to the Prison Officers' Association and addressed its annual conference. I have visited Shelton Abbey, Cloverhill, Wheatfield and Limerick Prison. We have opened the new male part of Limerick prison. The Deputy is correct that the situation in the women's prison in Limerick is not acceptable. There is a new build there. A new woman's prison will make a very big difference and will increase capacity by 22 additional spaces. I can confirm to the Deputy that it is now expected to open in July. Between the training unit in Mountjoy, the male and female accommodation in Limerick, there will be in excess of 200 new spaces. I have also brought forward a plan to provide another 620 places across the four projects I mentioned.

Photo of Pa DalyPa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome some of the Minister's proposals, including a prison education task force. The problem will always be in the implementation of these plans, which sound great. I spoke recently to a former prison governor who outlined the difficulties in engaging with longer term prisoners and assessing them for re-engagement with their communities. The promises contained in previous plans were not being met.

One prison in the State had two Merchant's Quay counsellors for 900 prisoners. In order to break what the Minister referred to as a cycle of imprisonment, which is often intergenerational, people have to do some sort of education and training programmes. It is simply impossible to assess a prisoner by how he or she has engaged with services such as education and training without the services being in place. The door of the cell is locked and prisoners are doing no other activities except for walking the yard. That means we are failing prisoners, families, their children and the communities they live in.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I fundamentally agree with the Deputy that there should never be a scenario where, for example, a school, workshop or training centre in a prison cannot open and people are instead sent out to a yard. That is a recipe for a variety of challenges, including challenges for prison officers as well as trying to break the cycle that we collectively want to break.

I have spoken to the director general of the Irish Prison Service. One of the first things we will examine in the new prison education task force, which will hold its first meeting in Mountjoy next Wednesday, will be how we can make sure that we properly resource but also structure schools and training centres. The Government recently published the health needs assessments for the prison population joint project between the Departments of Justice and Health and the Irish Prison Service. It outlines how we can begin to tackle some of those issues in terms of the health needs of prisoners.

I fundamentally believe that we have to look at this from both angles. We have to look at this from the point of view of penal reform and how we can reduce recidivism. We also need to recognise that as the population grows we need to expand capacity in prison. We have to do both of those things at the same time.