Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is important that when we address a Topical Issue, the Minister in question is here to address it. It is very important. I am very respectful that the Minister of State is here but I would have to say that I am concerned.

I was contacted by a number of constituents from the constituency both the Minister of State and I represent, namely, Carlow-Kilkenny. Some of them are retained firefighters while others are members of the Garda or paramedics. There are significant concerns regarding conditions, pay rates and pensions. I will speak about retained firefighters because I understand that they are to take industrial action on 6 June. While they do not want to do this, they feel they have no choice. They will attend fires, however, so if there is a fire it will be attended to.

My understanding is that there have been talks between the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and SIPTU. As the talks are ongoing, hopefully we will have a good result. A retained firefighter who might have given 30 years of excellent service will come out with a small lump sum but a new retained firefighter will get very little coming out. He or she will get a very small lump sum, if any, and when he or she reaches the age of 60, he or she will be lucky to come out with €12 to €14 extra in his or her pension.

A number of members of Carlow Fire and Rescue Service are now forced to retire even though they would very much like to stay on after reaching the age of 60, assuming they pass a medical. That is very important because we are haemorrhaging staff from the emergency services and this could be a way to address it. Local government authorities could look at extending the retirement age across the country and we need to look at rates of pay and pensions. I will take Carlow County Council as an example, where you can stay up to the age of 70. It is optional. I understand this does not apply to retained firefighters, however, who can work up to the age of 55. After the age of 55, they must undergo an annual medical until they are 60 but then they must retire. There are some firefighters who want to stay on. They are in very good health and do not mind doing medicals but they have mortgages and children who are living at home and they just need to stay on for a bit longer once they pass their medical.

Pay for anyone starting out is very low. I met a firefighter this week. He is a young man who has not been long in the job. He told me he went to look for a mortgage but could not get one. The banks would not even look at him. They said they could not look at him for a mortgage. We now have people working for local government who are unable to qualify for a mortgage. I could even speak about Garda members, who are the same. There is a significant challenge when it comes to recruiting gardaí. We need to look at that.

Our ambulance paramedics do an excellent job. A lady in Carlow who had a bad fall. There is a central location in Dublin so everything is centralised and is based on the telephone call. They rang for an ambulance. I do not blame the ambulance paramedics, who are doing a great job but as the people they rang said they would be waiting for an ambulance for an hour, our fire service came along, did a lot and got everything sorted, so well done. If we cannot recruit and cannot retain the excellent firefighters, gardaí and ambulance paramedics, then we need to give them proper pay and conditions in order that people can get a mortgage if they are in that line of work.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am happy to address this issue on behalf of my constituency colleague. Like the Deputy, I pay tribute to the incredible work our fire services undertake. The pay and conditions for all public servants, including those working in the fire services and the National Ambulance Service, are set out as part of the Building Momentum public service agreement. The Building Momentum agreement provided the agreed approach to public service pay and conditions for the period 2021 to 2022. It was further extended for 2023 following a review in acknowledgement of the changes to the underlying assumptions with regard to inflation. The pay measures introduced through Building Momentum and its extension amount to total headline adjustments of 9.5% over the lifetime of the agreement. In addition, the extended agreement is weighted especially towards those at lower incomes in light of the inflation challenge. That is why taken together, the Building Momentum agreement and its extension amount to headline increases of approximately 12.5% for the lowest-paid public servants.

In addition to the general pay rounds, all public servants covered by Building Momentum, including members of the fire services and the National Ambulance Service, have access to a new sectoral bargaining process to deal with outstanding adjudications, commitments, recommendations, awards and claims. Local sectoral management and the relevant sectoral union representative associations were provided with a sectoral bargaining fund to be used to resolve grade or sector-based pay claims and outstanding adjudications and awards or to be used as a sectoral general pay round up to the value of the fund. The equivalent of a 1% increase in annualised basic salaries was allocated to the sectoral bargaining fund for this purpose.

Where issues are not resolved at sectoral negotiations, parties have access to the established dispute resolution procedures. In the first instance, parties are expected to seek to resolve disputes at a local level to the maximum extent possible through regular and proactive engagement as issues arise. If this process does not resolve the matter, parties have recourse to the formal dispute resolution mechanisms, including the Labour Court and the Workplace Relations Commission. Our industrial relations machinery has served us very well over the years. That is why | believe it is everybody’s best interests that parties continue to work within these institutions to resolve disputes, rather than resorting to industrial action.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

While I welcome the Minister of State's response, I firmly believe we will hit a crisis across all the emergency services.

While I welcome that people are living longer, and we are all glad about this, the cost of living is a significant factor. Everybody has mortgages and a lot more outgoings, which we see daily in our clinics. We are not able to recruit in certain areas. I go back to the retained firefighters, whom I have been meeting a lot recently. I spoke to a man with a part-time job who was offered a job with Carlow County Council as a retained firefighter. He could not take it because he was told at the job he was doing that if he took another job they could not have him. If people with a job that they cannot survive on look for another job, they may not be allowed to keep the first job. The challenge in the system is unacceptable.

I know our retained firefighters do not want to take industrial action. I can only pay tribute to them for the work they do. They come across accidents. Every day people's lives could be lost. They go through so much but they love the job. It is like politics. I firmly believe that to be a garda, a retained firefighter or an ambulance paramedic, people have to have a calling for it. They deal with people's lives daily. This can affect them.

We have to have proper pay and conditions. We have to give them the choice they deserve. Nobody wants to be here today saying this. Neither do they want to be in a position where they have to fight for the proper pay that they deserve. I have spoken to the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. I have spoken to the Tánaiste and I am speaking to the Minister of State. We need to do something urgently in our emergency services or we could hit a crisis.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Deputy Murnane O'Connor for raising the matter so passionately. I agree wholeheartedly with her that these are people who have found a vocation in the work they do and they love their work on a daily basis. They face huge risk in that work and it is noted. The Government has noted the contents of Retained Fire Services in Ireland - A Review of Recruitment and Retention and the Future Sustainability of Service Delivery. It contains 13 key recommendations and was published in December 2022. I have spoken to my colleague the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, about it.

Following the publication of the report, management and employee representatives engaged in a process on the recommendations which was facilitated by an independent party. This process broke down on 10 May, as Deputy Murnane O'Connor is aware, with the staff side withdrawing from the process. Members of the retained fire service have since balloted in favour of industrial action. Formal notice of the action was served on 22 May, setting out three weeks of escalating action starting with a work to rule on 6 June. In this instance SIPTU has not adhered to the agreed dispute resolution process set out in Building Momentum.

Deputy Murnane O'Connor is correct that the dispute is primarily with regard to pay. The requirements set out under the code of practice on disputes procedures, including essential services to ensure the health and safety of the public and firefighters, has been noted by SIPTU. Parties are engaging at local level to put in place the necessary arrangements and efforts are ongoing to resolve this in line with the agreed process. On behalf of the Government I urge all parties to engage in a positive way to try to resolve this and stave away the necessity for formal action. I appreciate how challenging this is for all parties involved.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, for being here to deal with these matters.