Dáil debates

Tuesday, 16 May 2023

Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions

Military Neutrality

5:15 pm

Photo of Pádraig O'SullivanPádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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11. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence for a report on the planned consultative forums on security and defence; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22628/23]

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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34. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence for an update on the consultative forum on international security policy. [22661/23]

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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35. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the rationale and criteria for the selection of the chairperson of the forthcoming series of public consultations on defence policy and neutrality; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20678/23]

Photo of Pádraig O'SullivanPádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Tánaiste to furnish the House with a report on the planned consultative forum on security and defence.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 11, 34 and 35 together.

The consultative forum will take place in three different locations over four days at the end of June, on 22 June at University College Cork, on 23 June at the University of Galway, and on 26 and 27 June at Dublin Castle. In line with similar national processes, an independent chairperson was selected to chair the consultative forum on international security policy. The chair was appointed having regard to the remit of the consultative forum and, consequently, to the competencies, skills and experience required to conduct same. The consultative forum adopted the same approach to the appointment and remuneration of the chairperson as for the citizens’ assemblies.

Louise Richardson DBE, the highly respected president of the Carnegie Corporation and former vice-chancellor of the University of Oxford, has agreed to take on the important role. I am confident that Ms Richardson, who is a native of County Waterford and a distinguished political scientist with a strong expertise in security policy in her own right, will play a hugely positive role in chairing and overseeing the discussions.

The forum will be a broad discussion, examining issues such as Ireland’s work to protect the rules-based international order through our engagement in peacekeeping, conflict prevention and peace-building, and arms control and disarmament. It will look at new and emerging threats including cyber, hybrid, disinformation and threats to critical infrastructure. The forum will also examine our current and future engagement in the EU Common Security and Defence Policy, as well as our existing relationship with NATO through the Partnership for Peace.

Attendance at the forum will consist of invited guests, from Ireland and internationally, with expertise and practical experience in the areas to be discussed. I anticipate that those attending will also include various non-governmental organisations and, very importantly, members of the general public, for whom spaces will be reserved. Discussions will be livestreamed and there will be an option for online submissions. The objective of the forum is to initiate an open and evidence-based discussion on the State’s foreign and security policy. Anyone interested in engaging in the process will be able to do so. Full details of the programme over the four days, the arrangements for registration, livestreaming and the making of submissions will be published by the Departments of Defence and Foreign Affairs in the coming weeks.

Importantly, there are no predetermined or preconceived outcomes from discussions at the forum and participants will be free to raise any relevant issues during deliberations. The chair’s report will outline what transpired over the four days but will not include recommendations. Once it has been presented to me, I will consider its findings and decide whether to make recommendations to the Government.

Photo of Pádraig O'SullivanPádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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While the report of the Commission on the Defence Forces predates the Russian invasion of Ukraine it does mention the threat Russia poses. It states, "Ireland’s global geostrategic environment, looking out to 2030, will be characterised by intensified great power competition." In an era of intensified great power competition, the commission report states that Ireland can expect, among other things, "A growing ambition of the EU and some of its Member States to pursue strategic autonomy and for the EU to continue aiming to become a credible security actor on the global stage." How does the Tánaiste view this? When he attends meetings of the EU Foreign Affairs Council with regard to defence, does he get the sense that this is true? What is his response to that? The French ambassador made some comments in an interview with the Irish Examiner yesterday. I would like to hear the Tánaiste's thoughts on his comments that Ireland, among other EU countries, needs to pull its weight when it comes to increasing defence capabilities.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Ireland has been part of the Common Security and Defence Policy for well over 20 years. We always opted in; we did not opt out. Denmark recently had a referendum to opt in, having stayed out for over two decades. We have been a partner for peace with NATO since 1999 and have been involved in a number of projects in that context. That is an individually tailored programme where given states that are not members of NATO may seek expertise and support in some areas. We have been members of the permanent structured co-operation, PESCO, as well. That is the context.

The Deputy asked about the commission's report and the future, particularly in the European context. There are limits to European military capability, relative to the superpowers, that will not disappear anytime soon. We are looking at increased global polarisation, unfortunately. The Russian invasion of Ukraine represents a strike at the heart of the international rules-based order. Of that there is no doubt. It was a shocking violation of the integrity, sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine and it really strikes at the heart of the international rules-based order, which is Ireland's touchstone in respect of our foreign policy and security policy.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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It has not been two months since the Tánaiste, then Taoiseach, suggested a citizens' assembly to deal with the question of neutrality. Why did the Tánaiste abandon the idea of a citizens' assembly? Was it the notion of the citizens that was offensive to him, given citizens' very positive view of neutrality?

If the Government wanted to have at last the pretence of not having a predetermined outcome and having a genuine consultation, why on earth did it select as a chairperson a Dame of the British Empire who is on record repeatedly as supporting the aims of US militarism? She has supported in writing the US invasion of Afghanistan, has written that the United States had very good reasons to object to the Governments of Chile, Cuba and Nicaragua and wrote to support coups and attempted coups pursued by US imperialism in Latin America in the 1970s and 1980s. How on earth is that in any way compatible with the idea of a genuinely open, non-prescriptive discussion process?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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When I suggested a citizens' assembly, Deputy Murphy was against it.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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No, I was not.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Oh yes you were.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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I was-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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You were. Through the Chair, the Deputy was against any discussion about this.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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Check the record. I am for it.

5:25 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Through the Chair, the Deputy was against any discussion about this because his view and that of Deputies Barry and Boyd Barrett is to have no discussion.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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I was for it.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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They labelled everything I said about this as some attempt or strategy to end military neutrality. They immediately knee-jerked-----

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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That is what the Minister does.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----their way into saying that is what I am about. The reason I recommended this format to the Government and to the Oireachtas is because, while Deputy Murphy has his views on neutrality and Irish foreign policy, I have views on Irish foreign policy, as does the party opposite and as do others. I believe this is a better forum because parties themselves might want to make submissions in line with their esprit de corpson foreign policy. It is a better format than a citizens' assembly for something so fundamental as that which defines the State on an international level. Politicians too and people who have divergent positions can make submissions. The problem with Deputy Murphy, through the Chair-----

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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Through the Chair.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Deputy Murphy does not like debate-----

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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I love debate.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----that is not on his terms and he lambasts anybody who suggests an open, transparent forum for a discussion on Irish foreign policy and an analysis of the security threats.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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Let the citizens decide. Let us have a referendum.

Photo of Pádraig O'SullivanPádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have two more supplementary questions. Other nations in the EU, such as Finland and Sweden, have decided to join NATO. Will the Tánaiste tell us his thoughts on other neutral nations such as Austria, Cyprus and Malta and any other neutral nation he might want to refer to, with regard to how the question is being debated in their own parliaments and countries? I am trying to ascertain if it is similar to what is happening here.

While NATO has been united since President Biden took office, what does the Tánaiste think would happen in the event of an isolationist US President potentially withdrawing from NATO and EU defence? What might that bring and what consequences would there be for Ireland?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will address Finland and Sweden first. The Russian invasion of Ukraine and the manner in which that took place shocked Finland, which has navigated the relationship with Russia and the Soviet Union before it with great dexterity ever since its foundation, but it shook Finland to the core. I remember Finland's prime minister saying to me that everything they were taught in school and which they were taught to be afraid of had happened with the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I met President Sauli Niinistö, a distinguished man in his own right. He had engaged with President Putin at different times and felt betrayed by what had happened. Finland felt there was no option. The public galvanised the Government of Finland towards joining NATO. The same happened in Sweden because of its geographic position.

Austria, Cyprus, Malta and Ireland have taken a different approach. I have put forward the idea of a consultative forum with no preconceived outcomes. People are entitled to express their views. I have had discussions with the three countries the Deputy referred to about the unfolding situation. We have managed, with Austria and others, to facilitate constructive abstention from the peacekeeping facility, whereby lethal aid from Ireland does not go to Ukraine. That is the way forward in navigating military neutrality, which is basically military non-alignment.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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We would welcome a citizens' assembly on neutrality. We did not oppose it. I checked the record there. The Minister might correct the record of the House. We would welcome a debate now in a citizens' assembly. Ultimately, we think there should be a referendum. This should be put to the people to decide as opposed to the Minister and his Government leading us step by step towards the erosion of everything that is left of neutrality. That is both in actions, with the latest thing the Government is signing up to being the NATO project for the so-called protection of underseas cables, and then this process.

How is it possible to have even a veneer of impartiality when one is a Dame of the British Empire and is on record as repeatedly supporting the aims of US militarism? How is that in any way compatible with being a chair of a neutral process designed to discuss the process of neutrality? Defend that appointment. I heard the Minister saying to Deputy Barry earlier that he would attack whoever the Government appointed. The Minister might at least have appointed someone who was not repeatedly on the record as supporting the actions of the US military. It really gives the game away regarding what this is about.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I predicted this would happen. It is a nasty tactic of the far left, best exemplified by the Deputy here, to assassinate the person who is appointed. It is reprehensible behaviour but the Deputy does it all the time. His movement does it all the time. They attack the person who is appointed.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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She supports the actual assassination of people.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That person has a distinguished academic record. She was born in Waterford and rose to the top in the academic world in Oxford and the UK. She has a record in her own right as a political scientist. She is a person who will chair this consultative forum in an admirable, objective way. It speaks to the Deputy's hostility to anything this side of the House might suggest in respect of defence and security. He talks about subsea cables. Subsea cables are important to this country. They are important to many countries across Europe and the free world, which is the world for which the Deputy has great disdain. The economic well-being of Irish citizens depends on the protection of subsea cables. The livelihoods of thousands and thousands of workers who the Deputy claims to represent depend on the security of subsea cables. There is nothing wrong with Ireland asking for assistance or being a party, with non-NATO countries-----

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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It is a NATO-led alliance.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----with some countries which are in NATO.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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It is a NATO-led alliance.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is nothing wrong. I will repeat what I am saying, just as there is nothing wrong with collaboration on cybersecurity. Look at what happened to our health service two years ago.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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That is public service.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Look at what happened to our health-----

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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The Minister is responsible for that. He was Minister for Health. He did not-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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What is the Deputy saying about subsea security? Is it because it is not a public service?

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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It is not about the Army protecting-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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For God's sake. I think the Deputy's entire approach is ridiculous, shallow and superficial.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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Investment in security.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It needs to be taken head on.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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Let us have a referendum.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy's approach is about distortion and deliberately trying to obfuscate and undermine decent debate.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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Let us have a referendum. Let us let the people decide.