Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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3. To ask the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth the action he has taken in light of a review (details supplied) into the handling of child sexual abuse allegations within an organisation; his views on assurances Tusla provided regarding the organisation's current safeguarding child protection procedures; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15391/23]

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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My question concerns the situation with the St. John Ambulance. In light of the handling of child sexual abuse allegations within the organisation, what are the Minister's views on the assurances Tusla is providing regarding that organisation's current safeguarding child protection procedures and will he make a statement on the matter?

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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We had a useful discussion on this matter in the Seanad yesterday. The board of St. John Ambulance Ireland commissioned an independent review to be carried out by Dr. Geoffrey Shannon into the handling of complaints of historical sexual abuse of members under 18. This was a step I had urged the organisation to undertake following my own engagement with victims of abuse within the organisation.

My Department is giving urgent consideration to the findings and recommendations of the review report by Dr. Geoffrey Shannon. My officials have been working with Tusla to ensure appropriate supports are in place for survivors of abuse on the publication of the report. Tusla established a helpline that was available over the St. Patrick's weekend and this continues to be available during normal office hours, Monday to Friday. My officials are also engaging with Tusla to ensure all appropriate actions are taken in response to the findings of the review report. The commissioner and board of St. John Ambulance have accepted in full the findings and recommendations of Dr. Shannon’s report.

As noted in the report, the child protection policy of St. John Ambulance was in draft form during the review process. Although completed in November of 2022, the report was not published until March 2023, and in that timeframe child protection policy and procedures dated 2022 have been finalised and published on the St. John Ambulance website. Tusla carried out a review of the child safeguarding statement of St. John Ambulance most recently in March 2022, and the statement was deemed compliant. Child protection concerns relating to current members of the organisation should be referred to Tusla and An Garda Síochána. An assurance was given by St. John Ambulance to my officials that all known child protection concerns have been fully reported to Tusla.

St. John Ambulance has set out a detailed document outlining how it will respond to the significant number of recommendations set out in Dr. Shannon's report. I am determined to see that those recommendations are implemented. Officials in my Department, along with those in Tusla, have already met with members of the board of the St. John Ambulance. They met earlier this week seeking to set up a process whereby we can ensure all those recommendations are fully implemented.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister and I welcome that update. This process is going to be key. It is worrying, though, to think that an organisation dealing with children was finalising its child protection statement up until November 2022. I think that is what the Minister said. I mention those who have come forward and told their stories. I commend them on their courage and bravery. From dealing with one or two people, and one person specifically, I know they felt for a long time that they were not being listened to or heard. Unfortunately, we too often have debates in this Chamber concerning similar situations. We owe those survivors a great deal and I hope this is some vindication for them. We really need to learn from this situation and I will go into this in more detail in this regard in my follow-up. What do we need to do now in respect of possible legislation for a HIQA-style approach to organisations dealing with children?

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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While we all welcome that this report was undertaken, that it was published and that St. John Ambulance has committed to implementing all its recommendations, it is not acceptable that it took this huge level of pressure, primarily applied by the victims of abuse in this organisation, and nearly everyone here would have engaged with one or more of those victims, to bring about this development. This situation is not acceptable and it is important we recognise this.

As I said, the report is very scathing in places about the internal structures of St. John Ambulance and sets out the need for very significant internal reform and I will work to ensure that happens. I know Deputy Funchion's committee will engage with Tusla in terms of its oversight role here. I will observe those hearings carefully and if follow-up work is necessary, we will be happy to do it.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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The committee hopes to look at this and I know that some members of the committee, Deputies Sherlock and Cairns, are present. I assume there has been consultation with the survivors who have come forward and told their stories of anything that has gone on in St. John Ambulance, but I just want to make sure that has been done. It also raises the really serious question of who is in charge of ensuring organisations, whether State-funded or not, that deal with children have the correct procedures in place and have best practice. I talked earlier about a HIQA-style organisation. HIQA examines and ensures everything is in order in the health sector. Do we need to look at something like this for child protection? It is very worrying - I do not even know if "worrying" is a strong enough word to use - that up to November 2022 this organisation, which would known there was a huge amount of speculation around it, still did not have its procedure in place. I know the Minister has acknowledged that was not acceptable but are there other organisations that we do not know of? Do we need to look at legislation or something like that to give Tusla the powers to check these organisations on a regular basis?

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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On engagement with survivors, I said in the Seanad yesterday that I have had online meetings, had phone calls and had very significant engagement with one of the survivors. I am open to further engagement if that is something they feel is necessary and that they would wish. Moving away from St. John Ambulance to the wider issue, the discussions Deputy Funchion will have at her committee will be useful in terms of Tusla giving its perspective on its engagement with this organisation and any similar organisation. The new special rapporteur on child protection will speak with me about this particular issue and I know she wants to speak to St. John Ambulance as well about its implementation of the report.

Dr. Shannon's report was very much focused on actions within St. John Ambulance and I think Deputy Funchion's committee probably has an opportunity to look at this with a wider lens. I am not committing myself to anything today but I will listen very closely and if there are particular recommendations from the committee, I will be happy to engage with it on those.