Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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68. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills if he is confident that apprenticeship training will help meet the targets of the national retrofitting scheme; if he will provide an update on a recent report on the analysis of skills for residential construction and retrofitting 2023 to 2030; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15593/23]

Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to ask the Minister about the apprenticeship training programme and if he thinks it will meet the targets of the national retrofitting scheme; and if he will provide an update on the recent report on the analysis of skills for residential construction and retrofitting?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Apprenticeship training in the construction sector provides the skills required for a modern workforce, but crucially helps to support the Government in the delivery of our retrofitting

targets set out in the national retrofit plan. As we learned yesterday in this House retrofitting a house is not a new house, but it is a very important thing to do in terms of the climate. Retrofitting-related education and training is delivered across the tertiary system. Near zero energy building, NZEB, standards are being embedded in the curricula of relevant craft apprenticeship programmes as they are revalidated. As we revalidate all of our apprenticeship programmes the curriculum is altered to ensure the near zero energy building standards are embedded as a core component of any apprenticeship, as appropriate. We now have provided retrofitting and NZEB courses and centres in Laois, Offaly, Waterford-Wexford, and in Limerick-Clare education and training boards, ETBs. There are now courses also being delivered through Cork ETB, and Mayo-Sligo-Leitrim ETB, with further provision this year and in 2024. I think we will be in Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan's county for the opening of Cork retrofitting centre in the coming months. Courses are suitable for qualified and experienced learners, and those who are new to the area. Once an apprentice has completed their apprenticeship and the day-long NZEB fundamentals course, they can participate in an NZEB course specific to their trade to further enhance their professional development. The key message we need to get out here is a person is already working in the trades and working in construction these retrofitting courses are extraordinarily short. A course lasting a number of days will provide the retrofitting training needed.

My Department published the report on the analysis of skills for residential, construction and retrofitting and the corresponding action plan in December. The report indicates a need for 50,831 new entrants into the sector. That is not just in further education that is in higher education also so includes professionals, engineers, architects, craft, operative and other trade routes to meet the housing and retrofitting targets outlined in Housing for All and the national retrofit plan. It is important to recognise that this requirement and the labour needs to support retrofitting generally extends well beyond apprenticeships. There is a significant requirement for general operatives and those with qualifications through shorter courses to meet national retrofitting targets. Increasing construction sector productivity will also be an important part of this and the widespread adoption of modern methods of construction also has a crucial role to play in achieving these targets.

Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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As for productivity in construction sector I do not think there will be a shortage of demand there. I think it was in the 2021 to 2022 figures that there was a slight drop of 300 apprenticeships nationally. I suppose I have a straight question, how does the Minister account for that? Going forward into this year does he envisage that the figure will improve on that and make amends for that? Regarding retrofitting, it is very frustrating for public representatives that when we do refer people to the Sustainable Energy Authority Of Ireland, SEAI, programme we are told there are waiting lists of two and maybe three years in some cases. This is something that needs to be addressed urgently. The more and more apprentices that we can get into the system the better. It is through the Minister's own good office but I believe , and I hate to use the word snobbery, but we have successfully started to break down those barriers of the traditional educational snobbery when it came to viewing apprenticeships as a way of life . I would like the Minister to continue his good work of challenging those preconceptions when he is out and about in third level institutions.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy and I absolutely will because it is key for the mental health and wellbeing of young people that we do not have such a narrow definition of success. I think the Central Applications Office, CAO, process and league tables and that soft of stuff have brought us to that in recent years. It is also key for societal good because so much of what we need to progress around housing, climate and other areas will require more people becoming apprentices, doing traineeships, and going into further education and training as well. I want to assure the Deputy that as regards to retrofitting, we need 17,000 more people working in retrofitting. We have the capacity through the education sector to meet that target. What we now need to do is whet the demand. There are encouraging signs that more people are coming forward and we have to get the message out to employers that they can actually release their staff for a very small number of days and access these free retrofitting courses and future-proof their workplaces.

Regarding apprenticeship numbers, the honest answer to the question is 2021 was a bumper year as an adjustment to Covid-19 and there was a lot of pent-up demand. The actual figures in 2022 were very significantly up on all the pre-Covid-19 years as well and figures for this year show the first two months are 30% higher in terms of apprenticeship registrations than in 2022.

Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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If I may I have one last supplementary question for the Minister. It is outside of the question I asked about retrofitting. I was recently out canvassing in a small village in Cork called Grenagh. I met an apprentice mechanic on the door and we had a good chat about how he had left a previous college course and decided he would do this apprenticeship. As he told me about the difficulties he had and getting back on to that course he portrayed to me a big difference between for example in his case a potential mechanics' stipend versus somebody doing an electrician's apprenticeship. I am wondering if any review is envisaged for those kinds of payments or stipends for people in those fields? I am not saying that one is more important than the other but we need to provide an acceptable amount of money that will encourage or attract people to the various fields. We are quite short in the area of mechanics so I am wondering if any review is due on that also.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Yes is the short answer and I recently met the public sector trade unions, and indeed other trade unions representing apprentices to consider how best to take this forward. These rates were traditionally set by industry so, not to pass the buck but there is not a direct role from my Department in terms of setting the rates.

However, there are significant considerations around, for example, the minimum wage and how it relates to our apprentices. That is an issue I am looking at. We will work with our colleagues in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, the unions and industry representatives to see if we can come up with a way forward. We want more people to become apprentices. The Deputy is right in that there is a strong focus on crafts, but there are many other skills to develop and diverse apprenticeships we need people to take up. I would like to see a greater consistency in the funding and financial support available.