Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

6. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence if he will provide an update on the report carried out by the independent review group into allegations made by a group (details supplied); when this will be published; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14199/23]

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

7. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence if he will provide an update on the independent review into a group (details supplied); when the report will be published; the actions he will be taking in respect of the report; and if all the recommendations be implemented. [14165/23]

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

33. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence further to Parliamentary Question No. 61 of 2 February 2023, when the final report of the independent review to examine the effectiveness of the policies, systems and procedures in place for dealing with bullying, harassment, discrimination, sexual harassment and sexual assault in the Defence Forces, will be published; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13641/23]

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

36. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence if he will provide a detailed update on the current status of the report from the Independent Review Group into allegations of abuse in the Defence Forces. [13838/23]

Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I wish to ask the Tánaiste, in this role as Minister for Defence, about the review carried out by the independent review group into the very serious allegations made by the Women of Honour. Has the Tánaiste seen the report? When will it be published?

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

These questions are grouped.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I propose to take Questions Nos. 6, 7, 33 and 36 together. Despite the reforms that have taken place in the Defence Forces in the past 20 years with regard to dignity and equality matters, it is clear from the experiences shared by both current and former members of the Defence Forces, including the Women of Honour group and the men and women of honour group, that the culture that is prevailing and the application of policies, systems and procedures for dealing with unacceptable behaviour have not served and are not serving all Defence Forces personnel well. I will take this opportunity again to commend the courage of those who have shared their experiences of unacceptable behaviour in the Defence Forces.

The judge-led independent review group, established on 25 January last year, following approval by Government, examined those very systems, policies and procedures for dealing with issues relating to bullying, discrimination, harassment, sexual harassment and sexual misconduct in the Defence Forces, as well as the prevailing workplace culture. The primary objective of all concerned, at the outset, was to acknowledge issues in the current workplace and to establish a course of action that would address them.

The terms of reference for the review were wide-ranging and provided that the Government may consider further work on receipt of the independent review findings, including with regard to matters of a historical nature and how this might best be pursued. The chair of the independent review group, Ms Justice Bronagh O’Hanlon, submitted the final report of the group to me last month. I am considering the report in full in consultation with the Attorney General and will be bringing the report to Government very shortly for consideration, assessment and subsequent decision and publication. I do not intend, therefore, to comment on the detail of the report at this stage, other than to say that it is imperative a 21st century workplace culture is fully aligned with the principles of dignity, equality, mutual respect and duty of care for every member of the Defence Forces. The report will help us in this endeavour.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It must be acknowledged that these women were very courageous in coming forward to speak of their experiences of bullying, sexual harassment and misogyny in the Defence Forces. It is important these experiences are never allowed to occur again and that there needs to be a cultural change within the Defence Forces. Deputy Fitzpatrick spoke earlier about his positive experiences in three years in the Defence Forces, but that was obviously not the experience of all. It is important to ensure the Defence Forces is a place of dignity, equality and mutual respect for all and a career choice for women. In establishing the independent judge-led review group, the Government obviously recognised what the women were saying was true. When did the Tánaiste receive the report? Will he meet the Women of Honour group, prior to publication of the report? Will he ensure the Women of Honour group is involved in a comprehensive review of the report? The Women of Honour sought a statutory inquiry. Does the review report recommend same?

Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will put on the record that I am the son of a retired Defence Forces man. My father was in the Army for 25 years. I will point out all the hard work he and his comrades did, some of whom are in today. Retired United Nations veterans will be coming in this afternoon to visit the House. I extend my admiration and support to the Women of Honour group and all the survivors who came forward, so bravely, to tell their stories. Abuse and harassment are unacceptable in any workplace and we must show zero tolerance as a society. The Defence Forces should be no different. The last I heard was that the review was going to the Tánaiste's office, seven weeks ago, and was then being referred to the Attorney General. I wish to know when the review will be published. Will the Women of Honour get the recognition and validation they deserve? The Tánaiste also mentioned further work. What does he think that further work will be?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We want a date for the publication of the report. The Tánaiste has it and it is in to the second month. What is the delay and why will the report not be published? All of this arose with regard to the documentary by Katie Hannon, back in September 2021. I will not waste my time, or use my time rather than waste it, to praise the Women of Honour. They have set out what needs to be done. They were never happy with this independent review. Trust is of the essence and now we have a situation in which we are delaying the publication of the report. It is essential the report is published. I have read the report by Ruth FitzGerald on the other matter. I thank the Tánaiste for publishing it. It says the Minister did everything right with regard to following up on the complaints, but what it indicated from first hand reports was rape which occurred overseas and a first hand report of child pornography. Obviously, the Minister has done everything right, according to FitzGerald. I have no issue with that, but trust is of the essence here, not sweet words about culture and dignity. It does not exist and has not existed. That is why we have had the review.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Seven weeks ago, the Tánaiste stood in this Chamber and confirmed to me he was to receive the report that afternoon. Has the Tánaiste brought the report to the Attorney General? Has the Attorney General brought it back to him? Has the Tánaiste brought the report to his Cabinet colleagues? Will he engage with the stakeholders? Has he reached out to the stakeholders who were involved in that Katie Hannon documentary and stakeholders who came forward, after the Tánaiste established that group? Language is very important. These women spoke up. They banged on every door that was available to them, which culminated in the Katie Hannon documentary. The documentary, as powerful as it was - played on every radio station in the country - was not the first time these women spoke of the issue. It was simply the first time the country was listening to them.

The night before the Dáil went into recess last year for the summer, the Government published the high-level action plan in response to the commission on the future of the Defence Forces. I stand here to ask the Tánaiste, personally and as an elected representative, not to publish this report on the eve of the Dáil going into recess. I ask him to listen and finally vindicate what these women and others have experienced by not publishing the report on the eve of the Dáil going in to recess.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Troy raised the issue of the Women of Honour group. I intend to meet with those groups, prior to and after publication of the report. I received the report last month. I sent it to the Attorney General and I will be bringing it to Government very shortly. I hear conflicting reviews as to when it should be published. We cannot wait until after the recess either for publication. This will not be resolved in one day either.

What I envisage is that I will make a statement to the House upon publication of the report. When the report is presented, we have to examine the report, we have to go the Attorney General and we have to respond from a Government perspective to the recommendations by identifying and formulating a response that can be presented both to the groups and to the Dáil in particular.

This report affects every member of the Defence Forces. The words "culture" and "dignity" are not sweet words. I take very sincerely the points that have been made by Deputy Connolly. The words "culture" and "dignity" go to the very heart of this. This report is very far-reaching and goes to the core of much that was wrong in terms of workplace dignity and safety and in terms of behaviour. It is comprehensive. A very significant range of recommendations are being made coming out of that report. I do not intend to publish it without having a position, at least, on those recommendations, which I think is a valid position to have. I want to share it with Deputies and, as I publish it, I want to facilitate debate or at least an initial response. I am open to what Members feel is the most appropriate way in the first instance. I believe we should publish it as soon as possible. We intend to go to the Government very shortly on this. I want to make absolutely sure in the next number of days that we have everything ready and that we engage. I am engaging with the Chief of Staff and military management in terms of how we intend to act on the recommendations.

My Department will also be initiating contact prior to any publication to meet with those groups who were fundamental in bringing these issues to the fore. I would also say that it really impacts on everybody within the Defence Forces, present and past. That is how I intend to approach it. I will engage with the Opposition spokesmen on this. I think Deputy Clarke is suggesting we wait another three weeks.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not intend to do it without Dáil debate, if that meets the Deputy's point. This is not something that can just be published and we all go on. This is going to take prolonged engagement from Members of the House as well as all stakeholders.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a very important subject and I am trying to accommodate as many people as possible within the time. We will start the sequence again. Deputy Ward can go first this time.

Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The last time I spoke on this, I called on the Government to establish a full statutory inquiry into the allegations of abuse, harassment and sexual harassment. I said at the time that the proposal to hold a review was far short of what was needed and that a full statutory inquiry was needed. I also called for re-engagement with all stakeholders including the representatives of the Women of Honour to create fit-for-purpose terms of reference for an adequate scope to deal with these issues. Has this happened? What threshold in the level of systemic abuse that could be in the report would lead to a full statutory inquiry? Is there a threshold that might move to a full statutory inquiry?

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Tánaiste for the reply. I very much welcome that he has confirmed that he is willing to meet the Women of Honour prior to publication. That is critically important. The Women of Honour have stated that "we are here, ready and available to work with them towards effective change and tangible solutions in a collaborative and restorative manner." They want to be part of the solution and have to be part of the solution. Critical for that is for the Tánaiste and his office to engage with them prior to publication. I welcome that confirmation today. I do not know if the Tánaiste can confirm today whether the independent review group has recommended a statutory inquiry. We did say when the review group was being established that if a statutory inquiry was recommended by the group, it would be forthcoming.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The culture of dignity and respect did not exist, clearly, from the reports and stories told and the histories told by the Women of Honour. From the beginning they wanted a full, independent statutory inquiry. They got a review. They were never happy with that but struggled and did their best to co-operate with it. Let us put that aside now. Here we are. Trust is of the essence. I echo what Deputy Clarke has said about publication. We have seen this with the mother and baby homes report, where the Government held on to the report from October to January and then it was leaked. Trust is of the essence in this matter. A full debate in the Dáil is of the essence. The Tánaiste is already in receipt of a number of interim reports. He is fully alerted to what is in this report. Can he tell us precisely when he got it, when it went to the Attorney General, and when it will be published? He must know that by now. He must have an action plan in respect of this. I am repeating again that trust is of the essence in this, given the background and the nature of what was disclosed in the documentary.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree with Deputy Connolly when she speaks of trust. For many years these women and others who have engaged in this process had their abuse belittled. They had their rapes, sexual assaults and all of those negative experiences belittled. In fact some of them were actually gaslighted in their own reporting of this. Nobody in this House disagrees with the statement that this is wrong. However, this needs to be the watershed moment we often speak about. We must fully commit as a House that this will never happen to any other serving member now or into the future in our Defence Forces. This House sits for three days of the week. I am asking the Tánaiste, through the Business Committee, to ensure that when the matter comes before the House it is not only fully debated but also debated at a time that gives those in the Women of Honour and others who have engaged the opportunity to be in the Gallery to hear what their public representatives are saying on this issue. It is an issue we speak on but it has been their very real, lived experience and resulted in many of them losing their dedicated careers within the Defence Forces. Those careers should have been much longer than what they actually were. These people deserve not only to be heard but also to be seen to be heard if they are to draw a line under this so they can move on with their lives also.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What I would say to the Government is that I do not think what happened was merely wrong; I think it was shocking and disgraceful. There is no justification. There has to be fundamental change. I have to go to the Government. The Government has to make decisions on the basis of this. This is the process. I will recommend decisions for the Government to take in respect of the report. There is a comprehensive range of recommendations. We have to take a position on those. I want to meet the groups prior to the Government decision. In some respects I am constrained in terms of when I have those meetings. We will have those meetings and then I will meet again subsequent to the Government decision and publication. I would like a debate and I am open to discussion with the Opposition spokespeople. We will need time to debate but I think we could have an initial debate - I want to bring this to the Government next week. I am being cautious in the sense that I want to make sure of everything.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Tánaiste share his decision that he intends to bring to the Government with the women beforehand?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy was a member of the Government and knows they have to go to the Government first. He does know that. This affects every member of the Defence Forces. It really does. Every member of the Defence Forces is a stakeholder in this now in terms of the implications of the report and the follow-up action. I believe that we should try to facilitate an initial debate after the Government decision and after the publication of the report. Subsequently there is going to be further engagement. This is not going to be a report that gets published and is left at that. The Deputy should not be under any illusions about that.

Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will there be a statutory inquiry?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not want to go into the specifics. There are many recommendations.

10 o’clock

I am minded to follow through. I will be resolute in following through on this because it will be a watershed moment.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The statutory requirement question-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As I have said, I am not going into the specifics because we want to meet groups and we want to-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a very important subject and the Minister correctly gave a bit of latitude to it.