Carol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the efforts being made to implement the working time directive for members of the Defence Forces; if he will address concerns from serving personnel that the military management and his Department are seeking significant exemptions to the implementation of the Directive; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14429/23]

Carol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
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I wish to ask the Tánaiste, in his role as Minister for Defence, to set out what efforts are being made to implement the working time directive. What is being done to address the serious and legitimate concerns of serving personnel regarding the implementation of the directive? They are concerned that military management and the Department of Defence are seeking significant exemptions from the directive. What is happening in that area? What actions is the Tánaiste taking?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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As the Deputy is aware, the Defence Forces are currently excluded from the provisions of the Organisation of Working Time Act 1997, which transposed the EU working time directive into Irish law. I assure the Deputy that the Government remains fully committed to ensuring the provisions of the working time directive are applied, where appropriate, to the Defence Forces. This is in line with the Government commitment to removing the blanket exemption in the 1997 Act for both the Defence Forces and An Garda Síochána. Responsibility for preparing the legislative framework required to bring the Defence Forces within the scope of the Act lies with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. My officials are continuing to engage actively with that Department on this matter.

I emphasise that it is not the case that civil-military management are seeking significant exemptions to the implementation of the directive. The removal of the blanket exemption in the 1997 Act for the Defence Forces is a complex matter, given the nature of some military activities. A significant amount of work undertaken by military management has determined that a high percentage of the normal everyday work of the Defence Forces is already in compliance with the directive. However, recent European case law has been clear that certain activities, due to their specific nature, must be considered outside the scope of the directive. The provisions of this ruling have duly informed the proposed management position, which has as its guiding principle the fundamental requirement to ensure appropriate rights and protections with regard to health and safety are afforded to serving members, while also ensuring the Defence Forces can continue to fulfil their essential State functions. Dialogue with the representative associations on the proposed management position is continuing through a subcommittee of the conciliation and arbitration scheme. A number of issues raised by the associations are actively being examined by both civilian and military management, respectively. At this stage, therefore, it would not be opportune for me to comment further while this engagement continues. A final management position on the implementation of the directive is expected to be submitted shortly for my consideration and approval, once this dialogue is concluded. Thereafter, my Department will be engaging formally with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, which will take forward the appropriate legislative framework.

I assure the Deputy that the health and safety of personnel in the Defence Forces remains a priority for me and the Chief of Staff. We remain fully committed to ensuring the provisions of the working time directive are applied, as appropriate, throughout the Defence Forces, in line with the recommendations of the Commission on the Defence Forces.

Carol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
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I thank the Tánaiste for his reply. I note he said earlier to another Deputy that there was engagement on this very issue. He also said he would take decisions if it dragged on, which unfortunately it has. Serving personnel are becoming very frustrated, demoralised and concerned about the significant exemptions being sought by military management and the Department of Defence, as I alluded to earlier. From my engagement with serving and former personnel, there is close to a complete breakdown of trust between serving members and the Department on this issue. As I am sure the Tánaiste is aware, RACO recently cautioned him that while it was right to admit there were no quick fixes for the current problems, for years the Department of Defence has ignored irrefutable evidence of a decline which has become ingrained in the organisation and has avoided implementing the working time directive. That is a serious charge. I am sure RACO does not lay it lightly at the door of the Department. Of course, the Defence Forces are unique and the need for exemptions is reasonable in some instances, but not all. It is reasonable that they have clear assurances. The Tánaiste said he would take action if it dragged on. What actions or decisions is he going to take? Will he put in a timeframe? We need a timeframe.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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To be fair to all concerned, it must be acknowledged that there have been improvements in pay, conditions and various allowances over the last two and a half years. That progress will continue. Unrelenting negativity being articulated all the time by the Defence Forces is not optimal either. There can be room for improvement, but there comes a time when we must affirm and promote the positive dimension of a career in the Defence Forces, as Deputy Fitzpatrick referenced.

I spoke to my officials yesterday about the working time directive. We had a meeting about it internally. Discussions are under way within the subcommittee of the conciliation and arbitration scheme. Within a reasonable timeframe, those discussions will be concluded and a position will be put to me, which I will bring to the Government. I am determined to implement the working time directive in respect of the Defence Forces, which I will do. Department officials are committed to this. The assertions made are not accurate or correct. They are very committed to doing this. Historically, the position was that it never applied. I am committed and we will apply it. By definition, given the work of the Defence Forces more generally, it is not as straightforward as other workplaces, but we can bring it in. We should allow the discussions to take place and follow through on them.

Carol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
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I met serving and retired Defence Forces members who articulated the concerns I have outlined this morning. I do not believe it is a case of "negativity being articulated". The fact of the matter is there are outstanding issues which have gone on for too long. There is demoralisation, a sense of feeling demoralised and a strong sense of frustration. These matters must be addressed in order to promote our Defence Forces more, as they should be. To make it more positive, these issues must be addressed because they are affecting retention of military personnel. It is demoralising for them. We must admit that there is a problem. I am here to represent those people who have told me there are problems in the constituency and to try to get resolutions. The Minister said to another Deputy that he would take action if the process dragged on. I wish to have clarity regarding the Minister's comment that he would take decisions or action. Did he mean he will implement a timeframe to try to bring this to a resolution so we can increase morale in the Defence Forces and get this resolved?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, I do. We have a timeframe within the Department. It is being discussed at the moment in the scheme.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Tánaiste to bring heads of a Bill within six months.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We cannot discuss it across the floor of the House, if the representative organisations are in the discussion. I am making a legitimate point that we should facilitate and allow that to happen, but I will not allow it to drag on interminably. I will take action in respect of bringing a proposal to the Government. It then has to be legislated for and the legislating Department is the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. That is the point I was making. There are also broader issues related to recruitment and retention with which we will have to deal.