Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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59. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills if she is satisfied with the model being piloted for the transfer of patronage in schools; and if modifications in that approach are planned. [14233/23]

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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The question I am going to ask will be familiar to the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach. It relates to the pilot process for achieving a transfer of patronage. We had an example in our constituency recently and it went badly wrong, essentially because of a lack of anticipation of how a successful process could work.

It needs to be changed if we are to have success. In a constituency like mine, less than 15% of schools are non-denominational and they are predominantly denominational. That needs to change and we need to have a process that can do this smoothly.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I acknowledge that I had a discussion with Deputy Ó Ríordáin on this issue earlier. As I said, the Government’s objective is to have at least 400 multidenominational schools in the primary system by 2030 to improve parental choice. I fully support this commitment and the Department is working in this regard. In recent years, there has been progress towards increasing the number of multidenominational primary schools, with the vast majority of new primary schools established to cater for demographic demand in the last decade having a multidenominational ethos. That should not be lost in the discussion.

In March 2022, I announced that arrangements are being put in place in a number of towns and areas of cities that have no multidenominational primary schools to identify potential schools and to engage with school authorities, school staff and the school communities with a view to agreeing on a transfer of patronage and change of ethos, where there is sufficient demand. The schools reconfiguration for diversity process, supporting transfers of schools to multidenominational patrons in response to the wishes of local communities, has been developed in order to accelerate the delivery of multidenominational schools across the country. Where a school transfers from the patronage of one patron to another, the school remains open with the same roll number and operating from the same school property. All State-funded primary schools follow a common national curriculum and are subject to the same rules and regulations.

The ongoing pilot process is engaging with 63 schools in the cities of Cork, Dublin, Galway and Limerick and in the Arklow, Athlone, Dundalk and Youghal areas. The Council for Education of the Irish Episcopal Conference and relevant bishops have confirmed their willingness to engage and co-operate with my Department in seeking to facilitate a more diverse school patronage in these towns and cities.

The Department has made available a number of independent facilitators, who are former senior inspectors, across the pilot areas to work with the school patron and relevant school authorities at local level. This work involves engagement with school authorities, school staff and parents with a view to agreeing on a transfer of patronage and change of ethos, where there is sufficient demand. This process is about providing information and engaging with and seeking feedback from the school community. The pilot has already facilitated increased diversity, with the announcement on 12 January that a Catholic school in Athlone, Cornamaddy National School, will be transferring patronage from its Catholic patron to Longford and Westmeath Education and Training Board.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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The difficulty is that many elements of the approach taken militated against consensus and, in fact, it went far further than that and has now resulted in deep divisions within the school community. Among the problem areas was, first, that a very rapid decision was expected about the next school year. Second, there were no data or surveys prior to the initiation of discussions. Third, the complexity of a campus with mixed junior and single-sex post-infant classes was not anticipated. Basic questions like how the model would work and where feeder schools would be found were not anticipated before the approach was taken. The result was that camps were created very rapidly and what could have been achieved has been frustrated. We need a new approach. I would like to hear how the Minister thinks about resolving those issues that I have outlined.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I accept the points the Deputy has made. There are 63 pilots. It is important to remember, as I said previously when it was raised with me, that in some areas it has worked much better and has been a much stronger process than it has been in other areas. There have certainly been challenges and it has been more challenging in some areas than in others. It is for that reason that the Department has given an absolute commitment that there will be a full review of the process. Any learnings that we gain, we will obviously put to good use.

It has been particularly complex in the area referenced by the Deputy. Notwithstanding that, I have also pointed to where we have had successes, for example, at Cornamaddy National School. It is the wish and the hope of the Department that there will be number of other transfers of patronage and changes of ethos to multidenominational schools in the short term. The pilots are up and running. We are awaiting the final report from the facilitator in regard to the area that the Deputy references.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Would the Minister not agree with me that some very basic design processes were absent? Give the notion of a rapid decision in a complex situation, this should have been allowed to be phased over a period. As there were no data, no surveys and no anticipation of what might be the views of parents, it ended up that one of the criteria used was the number of children opting out of religion being an indicator of preferences – that is clearly not an adequate indicator but that is what they were reduced to. There were also basic questions on feeder school arrangements. Each of these is within a planning area. The Department could look at the entire planning area and develop a more robust system that gives parents more confidence in the direction of challenge. This process needs to be seriously examined. It did not work in this instance and some of the design flaws could have been anticipated.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I cannot be any clearer. From the outset, we have been very clear that the purpose of the pilots is, obviously, that they would be successful in that they would glean for us an increase in multidenominational provision. Equally, however, we have been clear from the outset that there will be learnings from the pilots. A pilot is a pilot. There will be learnings and, obviously, we will put that to good use going forward. However, it is fair to say that the example the Deputy has given, and it was given here earlier this morning, has been particularly complex and particularly challenging. That has not been the experience in other instances. While that does not in any way diminish the challenges that have been presented in this area, notwithstanding that, it is only balanced to say that in other areas those difficulties were not found. Equally, in terms of multidenominational provision, particularly with new schools, it is important to remember that 52 of the 53 new primary schools are multidenominational and 44 of the 50 new post-primary schools are multidenominational. To conclude, there will be a full review of the process on the conclusion of the pilot scheme.