Dáil debates

Tuesday, 21 March 2023

Ceisteanna - Questions

Northern Ireland

4:15 pm

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland will next meet. [11112/23]

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland will next meet. [9677/23]

Photo of Ruairi Ó MurchúRuairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland will next meet. [11253/23]

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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4. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland will next meet. [11295/23]

Photo of Seán HaugheySeán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland will next meet. [11297/23]

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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6. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland will next meet. [12441/23]

Photo of Mick BarryMick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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7. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland will next meet. [12648/23]

Photo of Gary GannonGary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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8. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland will next meet. [12651/23]

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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9. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the Britain and Northern Ireland division of his Department. [12838/23]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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10. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland will next meet. [12855/23]

Photo of Bríd SmithBríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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11. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland will next meet. [12858/23]

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 11, inclusive, together.

The Cabinet committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland was reconstituted as one of ten Cabinet committees established in January 2023. It operates in accordance with established guidelines for Cabinet committees and, where appropriate, substantive issues are referred to Government for discussion and approval. The committee is intended to oversee implementation of relevant programme for Government commitments in the area of Brexit and Northern Ireland and ongoing relevant developments. A date for the next meeting has not been set.

Northern Ireland-related matters are also discussed at meetings of the full Cabinet. Most recently, on 28 February, the Cabinet considered a memorandum on the agreement reached between the EU and UK on the Windsor Framework. We also discussed the Windsor Framework at the Cabinet committee on European affairs last night.

The Department's Britain and Northern Ireland division consists of two units, the British-Irish and Northern Ireland affairs unit and the shared island unit. The former assists me in my engagement with the Good Friday Agreement institutions, including the North-South Ministerial Council and at the British-Irish Council summits, and also on my visits to Northern Ireland, as well as providing policy advice and input. Other responsibilities include oversight of the New Decade, New Approach commitments, working with the shared island unit in advancing these goals as part of efforts to enhance North-South co-operation. The unit supports British-Irish relations in light of the challenges arising from Brexit, including with the British Government and the devolved Scottish and Welsh Governments. The shared island unit in the division acts as a driver and co-ordinator of the programme for Government commitment to work with all communities and traditions on the island to build consensus around a shared future, underpinned by the Good Friday Agreement. It co-ordinates the implementation of shared island investment objectives across Government Departments, fostering dialogue with all communities on common concerns for the future and commissioning research on policy considerations for the whole island.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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The Aontú councillor, Ms Denise Mullen, recently met Mr. Jon Boutcher who is investigating a large number of murders of Irish people as a result of British collusion. Mr. Boutcher stated that his investigation team requested important and relevant documentation on a large number of murders from the Garda. These murders include, for example, the Dublin and Monaghan bombings and numerous other murders of Irish citizens. The Garda has still not provided these documents to the Boutcher investigation, despite the fact they were sought well over a year ago. Councillor Mullen and I, along with victims and survivors of the Glenanne gang, met the then Taoiseach, Deputy Micheál Martin, more than a year ago and requested the same documents. The then Taoiseach stated they would be handed over. We are now running out of time. The legacy Bill is winding its way through the House of Lords and will be finished very shortly. Many people are desperately in need of the truth and justice in terms of what happened to their loved ones. That journey and search is being held up by the South through the Garda's refusal to hand over the necessary documents.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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The Democratic Unionist Party, DUP, confirmed that it will vote against the British Government's proposals on the Stormont brake on Wednesday. This is of real concern as it is a key part of the Windsor Framework agreement. The DUP's approach now indicates that, sadly, we are no closer to the restoration of the power-sharing Executive and the Stormont Assembly. This clearly has major political and practical implications for the people of Northern Ireland. We saw in recent weeks teachers and healthcare workers having to resort to strikes in the North due to unresolved issues and disputes about pay. We have seen the real prospect that 1,700 people in the community and voluntary sector who support those with disabilities will unfortunately lose their jobs on 31 March because of the end of European social funding initiatives. Dozens of organisations are at risk of closure, with many thousands people who are supported by employability services impacted. The failure to restore the Executive as we approach the 25th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement has very serious consequences. What next steps to seek the restoration of the Executive in Northern Ireland does the Taoiseach plan to pursue given this new indication from the DUP?

Photo of Ruairi Ó MurchúRuairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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As regards the Windsor Framework, there are many who seek clarification on the issues. I am not overly worried about what way the DUP votes but the protocol and framework are the only show in town. We all accept we need the Executive to be up and running and this needs to be made clear. This State also has to do its work on preparations relating to constitutional change.

I will deal with one particular issue caused by partition relating to PayPal. Not only have there been job losses but 120 people who are from the North will not be able to continue to work for PayPal in the South. They will have to be paid under so-called PayPal UK and there are particular issues relating to social protection, insurance and taxation. This issue needs to be dealt with between the Revenue Commissioners and HM Revenue & Customs but beyond that, a bilateral agreement may be required. We are now in a better place as regards the relationship with Britain and the Government must put its shoulder to the wheel and deliver on this.

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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One of the many benefits of the Good Friday Agreement was the establishment of all-Ireland bodies, including Tourism Ireland. Tourism Ireland has responsibility for marketing the island of Ireland as a premier holiday destination. Its remit is to promote increased tourism to all of our island. The Taoiseach is aware of the British proposal for an electronic travel authorisation scheme. Unless there are proper exemptions for visitors from the United States and elsewhere, this will cause serious difficulties. Some 70% of visitors to Ireland come through Dublin Airport, a very important airport and point of arrival for the tourism business north of the Border and throughout the northern half of the country. Recently, the Committee on the Administration of Justice, CAJ, warned that US tourists travelling north from the Republic could be detained at the Border under the Tories' proposed asylum laws. The British Government has proposed an illegal migration Bill which, allied to the electronic travel authorisation scheme, could pose serious difficulties for travellers from the North to the South and the South to the North. I would like the Taoiseach and his officials to ensure a close eye is kept on those proposals as they go through Westminster.

Photo of Seán HaugheySeán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Taoiseach about his recent visit to Washington, where he attended a number of events and had a meeting with US President Joe Biden. John Hume began to engage with US politicians in the 1970s and get them to take an active interest in Northern Ireland. Since then, successive US administrations have played a key role in the Northern Ireland peace process. The Taoiseach's key message in Washington was that the Windsor Framework and the restoration of the Stormont institutions can result in significant investment in Northern Ireland over the next decade. The active support of President Biden for the Windsor Framework is most welcome as is the appointment of Mr. Joe Kennedy III as a special envoy for economic affairs. All the Northern Irish parties were in Washington for St. Patrick's Day, including the DUP. I am aware the DUP feels obliged to vote against the Stormont brake in the House of Commons this week as it awaits the outcome of the expert panel review. While in Washington, did the Taoiseach get any sense that all the parties realise the potential of the Windsor Framework and political stability in bringing about increased investment in the North?

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Agreement on the protocol between the European Union and the British Government has been secured. The negotiations are over and the deal has been struck. The majority of people, political parties and business interests in the North want the Executive to be restored and those who were elected almost a year ago to get back to the business of governing.

The Withdrawal Agreement Joint Committee will meet on Friday to ratify formally the legal changes to the protocol. I welcome the fact that the DUP says it is committed to the restoration of the North's political institutions, and we take its word on that. It is time now for the DUP to accept that the negotiations are over and the deal done and that a functioning Executive and Assembly should be established. It would be a huge lost opportunity on the occasion of President Biden's visit if there were no functioning institutions. Does the Taoiseach agree that the most appropriate manner in which all political parties, all of us, can mark the anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement is to respect the democratic outcome of last year's election and restore the Assembly and Executive?

4:25 pm

Photo of Gary GannonGary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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The Taoiseach recently spoke of the responsibility of all politicians to fulfil the promise of the Good Friday Agreement not only in the area of peace but also when it comes to reconciliation. I do not for a moment disagree with that assertion but I will add that, as we approach the 25th anniversary of the agreement, we have much to do when it comes to the implementation of the goals contained in the accords. Much of the discussion will rightly focus on the fact that we are on the sixth collapse of the Stormont Assembly in 25 years, resulting in a cumulative total of ten years during which the people of the North have gone without a sitting Parliament.

In addition to having no functioning Government at present, the people of the North of Ireland still have no bill of rights and no anti-poverty strategy and have some of the lowest educational attainment levels in Europe. The Taoiseach speaks of reconciliation while at the same time the cruel so-called legacy bill, which will obliterate the calls for truth, is being pushed through Westminster. Even now, 25 years later, we have communities divided by peace walls that have no prospect of being taken down. As we celebrate it in a couple of weeks, how can we also analyse the Good Friday Agreement - its successes, failures and implementation?

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The attitude of the DUP to the Windsor Framework and the Stormont brake, which was a major concession to the party, just shows that it will do absolutely anything to cling onto the sectarian bandwagon and maintain the sectarian status quo. When we see that, does it not suggest that if we need a force that can challenge the sectarianism the DUP seeks to perpetuate, the place to look is the public sector strikes in the North, where we have seen health workers and teachers, Catholic and Protestant, united, fighting for decent pay and conditions? Those are the sorts of forces that can challenge the sectarianism the DUP wants to perpetuate. Also, if we want to further that process of challenging sectarianism from the bottom up, one major stumbling block is the fact that things like the health service down here in the South continue to be dominated by Catholic religious organisations and we continue to have a two-tier system rather than a national health service.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I will take the questions in reverse.

Deputy Gannon asked about the Good Friday Agreement and how we would assess it now. I think it has been a great success despite its failures or limitations. It has given us three things, one of which is peace, and almost everyone in Northern Ireland accepts that political objectives can be pursued only by peaceful means. There is agreement on consent that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom but we can have unification if a majority both North and South want that. There is also the parity of esteem principle, that is, that people can be British, Irish or both and should be accepted as such. If everyone had accepted that 100 years ago, 50 years ago or even 30 years ago, many fewer people would have died violently and many of the terrible things that happened would not have happened. Unfortunately, some did not accept that until 25 years ago, although they do now.

What is disappointing is that the agreement has not lived up to its promise, which was functioning power-sharing institutions that would evolve over time into more normal forms of government. That has not happened, but the next step has to be to try to get the institutions back up and running, and I believe that is possible. As other Deputies have said, people in Northern Ireland face very real everyday problems, whether it is the cost of living, housing, health or issues with the public finances. These are very similar problems to the ones we face here, sometimes worse, sometimes better. It is right that the institutions should be up and running as soon as possible. I have always said that having an agreement on the protocol would not necessarily mean that the institutions would be re-established, but the reverse is also true. It is still possible for the institutions to be re-established even if the DUP does not fully accept the Windsor Framework, but that is ultimately the DUP's call. I hope it makes a favourable call on that in the coming weeks or months but I cannot speak for the DUP, nor should I try to do so. I know there is ongoing contact between the DUP and the UK Government about its domestic legislation, but certainly when it comes to any changes to the Northern Ireland Act, it is really important that all five major parties are fully consulted. We should recognise the fact that there are five major parties in Northern Ireland.

There will be a vote in the House of Commons tonight. We will see how that turns out. The Windsor Framework was agreed at EU level just yesterday, at the General Affairs Council, and we will discuss it at European Council level, at Heads of Government level, on Thursday and Friday, with a view to putting something into the conclusions. We would like to see the result of the vote tonight before then. Pending that vote, I will not say any more than that.

We are in touch with the UK authorities about the new electronic transit authorisation, ETA. Irish citizens, UK citizens and people permanently resident in the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland will be exempt from that, but it could cause problems for tourists, particularly those who do not need a visa to come here, that is, tourists from other parts of the European Union who might come to Dublin or Cork or some other part of this jurisdiction who would then need to get the electronic authorisation to travel north. It will not be a hard thing to do but it is an additional barrier and not something that is welcome. Certainly, when I was tourism Minister, working with my counterpart at the time, Arlene Foster, we sold the idea that people can visit any part of Ireland, and why not take a day trip from Dublin to the Causeway coast or why not fly into Belfast and travel south? That will be more complicated now, and we will have to explain to potential tourists coming to the island of Ireland that there is this new complication. It is just an additional complication that we could do without, unfortunately. We will continue to work with the British Government on that issue and see if we can get further changes.

In response to Deputy Tóibín's question, I am not up to date on that issue of the documents sought from the Garda but I will get my office to look into it and revert to him on it if that commitment was made by Deputy Micheál Martin as Taoiseach. I will definitely follow up on that and see if there is something we can do to move that along.

The US visit will definitely be a good opportunity to engage informally with the five party leaders to talk about how they thought things would develop. One person I would like to mention, based on the comments earlier about different US Presidents' interests in Ireland, is Jimmy Carter. I think people will know that former President Jimmy Carter is in poor health at the moment. As part of my research before travelling over, I learned a bit more about the period when he was President. He was probably the first President who looked at the situation in Ireland and Northern Ireland a little differently. Previously, the US had been extremely close to the UK for lots of different reasons. Generally, the direction from the State Department had been that anything happening in Northern Ireland was an internal matter for the United Kingdom. He was the first US President to change that. I just want to acknowledge him for that reason.

Photo of Ruairi Ó MurchúRuairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I asked about cross-Border remote working and the difficulties with PayPal's closing of its premises.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Sorry. I heard Deputy Ó Murchú's question. I am afraid I do not have an answer to it. I am not familiar with those changes, but if he wants to come back to me directly on it, I will look into it.