Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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14. To ask the Taoiseach if he will provide an update on the work of the policing reform implementation programme office in his Department. [9604/23]

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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15. To ask the Taoiseach if he will provide an update on the work of the policing reform implementation programme office in his Department. [11008/23]

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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16. To ask the Taoiseach if he will provide an update on the work of the policing reform implementation programme office in his Department. [11556/23]

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Tógfaidh mé Ceisteanna Uimh. 14 go 16, go huile, le chéile.

A Policing Service for our Future is the Government’s plan to implement the report of the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland. Implementation of the plan is being overseen by a dedicated programme office in the Department of the Taoiseach and has entered the final consolidation phase, with many substantive reforms already attained. This phase is expected to conclude in the fourth quarter of this year, after which the enhanced governance and accountability framework will be introduced following enactment of the Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill in 2024.

Major reforms to date include progressing the operating model for An Garda Síochána, designed to streamline Garda administration and to provide a more visible, responsive and localised policing service to communities nationwide. They also include pilots of local community safety partnerships in three locations. These are Dublin’s north inner city, Waterford city and county and Longford county. Another reform is the recruitment of nearly 1,800 Garda staff. This has allowed us to reassign many gardaí to front-line policing duties. There is also the distribution of almost 11,000 digital communication devices to enable front-line gardaí to perform their duties without having to return to stations. The reforms also include implementing the equality, diversity and inclusion, EDI, strategy statement and introducing additional health and well-being assistance for the workforce as part of a three-year Garda health and well-being strategy.

There has also been progress on legislative reform. The Government has approved the drafting of the landmark Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill, which provides for the most wide-ranging and coherent reform of policing in a generation.

It has also approved the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) Bill, which concerns the use of recording devices, including body-worn cameras, and the Garda Síochána (Powers) Bill, which combines and modernises police powers of search, arrest and detention. In addition, the Garda Síochána (Functions and Operational Areas) Act came into law in 2021 to underpin the new Garda operating model.

These achievements represent only some of the wide-ranging actions completed or being progressed, and the plan is continually assessed to ensure a smooth transition to these new governance and oversight arrangements.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I hope we would all accept that the critical building block for a policing service for our future is actually the people working within the service, in other words, the gardaí themselves. The Taoiseach's response did not reflect the fact gardaí are resigning in increasing numbers, with nearly three times the number resigning from the force last year when compared with 2017. Indeed, the Garda Representative Association and the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors have raised the difficulty of retaining gardaí within the service and in encouraging new recruits. I am not talking about what they call natural wastage or people retiring. I am talking about relatively young officers walking away from the job.

We know that just a fraction of the new recruits target was met last year and that Garda numbers have not returned to their pre-Fine Gael-led Government levels. In my constituency, the number of community gardaí attached to Cabra, the Bridewell and Mountjoy Garda stations has fallen from 78 to 35 over the past decade. The number of gardaí assigned to the six public order units operating full-time across the Dublin Garda divisions has also fallen by 30% over the past three years. Recent crime statistics have shown a rise in almost all categories.

Recruitment and retention needs to be gripped. Low morale comes from far too few gardaí and shortfalls in resources, including infrastructure and IT resources, equipment and technologies. When this is coupled with the increases in resignations and falling recruitment, gardaí do not have adequate support and resources, and it is communities like the ones I represent that are, quite frankly, left to pick up the pieces.

Does the Taoiseach recognise the scale of the challenge for An Garda Síochána? Will he reassure those working within that service that the Government is committed to addressing that?

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his detailed and comprehensive response to this question. I welcome the fact that, after the publication of the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland report, a decision was made that we would establish an implementation office within the Department of An Taoiseach. That showed the seriousness with which the Government was taking the implementation of this programme. Those of us who debate the justice legislation that comes before the House will be aware that a very significant amount of legislation has come here seeking to implement recommendations contained within that report.

One thing which has changed since the publication of the report is that we now recognise we have a recruitment crisis within An Garda Síochána. In fairness, that is not something that can be laid solely at the door of the Government. The Government has provided sufficient funding to provide for 1,000 extra gardaí last year and this year. Unfortunately, we are not getting the recruits in, and those who are expressing interest in joining An Garda Síochána are not getting over the obstacles that permit them to gain entry.

I ask that the implementation office within the Department would take into account that we have this recruitment crisis. We need to look at some options which we were aware of in the past but which we have not considered implementing, such as extending the retirement age. There are very many fine members of An Garda Síochána who would like to stay on but are forced to retire at 60 years of age. This is something we need to look at to ensure we can retain numbers within the force. Second, there are very many people in this country who find themselves doing boring desk jobs. After 35 years of age, they may want to look for a more exciting job but we do not permit them to join An Garda Síochána after the age of 35, which is something the implementation office needs to take into account.

The reason for this is that we have a problem with crime in the inner city and in Dublin, and I am sure we have it in other urban areas as well. It is a multifactorial solution that is required. One of the absolute solutions is to have more gardaí on the street because, without that, we will not be able to challenge this scourge of crime in our communities.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Bríd Smith, followed by Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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You let me in before Deputy Boyd Barrett simply because it is International Women's Day.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely. I would like to think I do it all the time. Is that a complaint?

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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No, I like the positive discrimination. I would love to see it happen all of the time, not just on 8 March.

I was wondering about the discussions on the report on the policing service for our future and how that relates to evictions, seeing that evictions are going to be a big part of our future. Was there any discussion or training of gardaí in how to deal with these issues? I had experience in the past, particularly as a councillor but also as a Deputy, of being called to the scene of evictions. When I called gardaí, despite my rank as a local representative, they would tell me it is a civil matter and nothing to do with them, despite the evictions being illegal in many cases. We compare that with what we saw in Frederick Street at one of the most famous evictions that has happened in recent years, where gardaí were called in military-style to back up the bailiffs. With the eviction ban lifted, will any aspect of the future of policing in the State seek to ensure gardaí are not used like hired helps, as companies like Debenhams have used them in the past, or as in the scenes during the Famine in places like Skibbereen, where bailiffs were backed up by the local RIC? We do not want to return to that. I am genuinely asking the Taoiseach what training, advice and so on is being given to gardaí who will increasingly face eviction scenes in their community.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Taoiseach will be familiar with the phrase “One law for the rich and one law for the rest of us”. There is a perception that policing and enforcement is dealt with differently depending on whether you are dealing with workers and working people or dealing with the rich and the powerful. I urge the Taoiseach in this regard to watch “406 Days”, a film that has just been made, has won a number of awards, and that premiered at the Dublin Film Festival. It is about the Debenhams dispute and the 406 days where workers who had done nothing wrong had to strike and occupy to fight for the redundancy they were promised and denied by Debenhams, when the asset strippers who took over that company walked away with £315 million sterling. At the end of that dispute, which the film highlights in the most shocking way, there was an enormous simultaneous Garda mobilisation to break the occupations and strikes in Henry Street, Cork, Limerick, Tralee, Waterford and so on. It was a massive Garda mobilisation to assist the company and the liquidators to take out the goods and drag people away from the picket lines.

I went with the Debenhams workers a few weeks ago to the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement to give it information gathered by the makers of that film about the treatment, the tactical nature of the liquidation, and possible sharp practice by the company. In fact, it was definitely sharp practice, but possibly it was illegal practice. Interestingly, the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement thanked us for the information but said it would not be coming back to us on its investigation into that. Will the Taoiseach and the Government follow up on the matters we brought to the attention of the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement in terms of the shameful, possibly illegal, behaviour of the Debenhams group in terms of the treatment of the Debenhams workers?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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In regard to Garda numbers, we want to build safer and stronger communities, and that means supporting gardaí and making sure they are supported, feel supported, and that it is a good career choice. The budget provides for 1,000 additional Garda recruits this year and we believe that will be adequate to cover retirements and resignations.

The resignation rate from An Garda Síochána is just over 1%. That may well be higher than previous years, and it is, but it is low in comparison with most organisations across the public and private sectors. Even extremely well-paying companies would see resignation rates of 4%, 5% or 6%, and that would be commonly seen across the public sector.

2 o’clock

That is more a reflection of the fact we have full employment, that there are so many different job opportunities for everyone and that the job for life, which was the norm for people in the past, is not the case anymore and many people want to change careers during the course of their lives.

I was interested in some of the suggestions Deputy Jim O'Callaghan made. I assure him I appreciate there is a real challenge with Garda recruitment. We are going to have a big job to secure the 1,000 recruits we voted for this year as Government parties. I have taken an interest in this and met the Garda Commissioner and the Minister for Justice about it. Among the suggestions made was increasing the retirement age from 60 years to 62, and that is under consideration. It is a good idea. If somebody is fit, healthy and able to do the job, why should there be a particular age at which they are told they must retire? Some safeguards around competence and fitness might be needed, but once that is done, I do not see why that age limit could not be increased. The Ministers, Deputies Donohoe and Harris, are working on that. A similar issue arises in the Defence Forces around people being required to retire at 50 years of age. I understand there has been a recent Workplace Relations Commission ruling on the matter of people not being able to join after the age of 35 years, so we may well see a change coming on that too.

On evictions, we in Ireland often mistakenly use the term "eviction" interchangeably with notices to quit, but they are not the same thing. It is my understanding evictions can only happen here under a court order, and therefore are actually very rare. I am sure gardaí are adequately trained to deal with that matter.

As we are talking about the Garda and respect for it, it would be remiss of me not to bring the attention of the House to a document produced recently by People Before Profit entitled The Case For A Left Government: Getting Rid of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. It can be purchased for €3 online, and you even get a nice picture of me and Tánaiste on the front cover of it. In this document we are told the rich, using their control over the media, will try to turn the population against a left Government led by Deputy McDonald. It says they will deploy the police and the army to move against the elected left-wing Government. It will not just be the Garda involved in this conspiracy, but the Irish Independent, The Irish Timesand RTÉ. Even primary teachers, the GAA and taxi drivers are all part of this conspiracy to overthrow the elected left-wing Government led by Deputy McDonald-----

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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A slightly mischievous interpretation.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----and assisted by People Before Profit.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is very mischievous, but thanks for the publicity. It will sell loads of pamphlets.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is very interesting debating-----

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I am sure the party has sold loads, Taoiseach, but let us-----

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----members of People Before Profit in the Chamber. You are interesting people, you are passionate and I enjoy listening to your questions and you often raise pertinent issues I sometimes have not considered, but are you sure you are not a bit bonkers? Do you really think there is going to be a conspiracy-----

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Explain the Debenhams stuff then.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----involving all those people to overthrow a left-wing Government?

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I would rather be bonkers than a Tory like you.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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That concludes Taoiseach's Questions.