Dáil debates

Thursday, 2 March 2023

Ceisteanna ar Sonraíodh Uain Dóibh - Priority Questions

National Monuments

11:00 am

Photo of Joe CareyJoe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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96. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if the OPW will install CCTV at the national monument at Clare Abbey, County Clare; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10569/23]

Photo of Cathal CroweCathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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117. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if the Office of Public Works will install CCTV cameras to help deter vandalism at Clare Abbey, County Clare; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10274/23]

Photo of Joe CareyJoe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW arrange for CCTV to be installed at the national monument at Clare Abbey, Clarecastle, County Clare?

Photo of Patrick O'DonovanPatrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 96 and 117 together.

The matter concerning the proposed installation of CCTV at Clare Abbey has been previously raised in discussions with the local authority and local stakeholders and in my presence as well during a visit to the abbey. The deployment of security measures across the national heritage estate is kept under constant review by OPW. Security measures, where deemed necessary, must be proportionate to address a real, pressing and substantial problem. The installation of security measures in rural settings can pose a challenge in terms of available infrastructure and the visual and physical impact on the site. As such, physical security measures are not always a feasible option. There are also a number of other considerations prior to any interventions at the site.  

The OPW has taken local concerns on board and engaged a caretaker for the site. I understand that the incidence of vandalism and littering has decreased since the engagement of the caretaker.  The OPW works closely with An Garda Síochána and the local authority in addition to relying on the local community to alert us to issues as they arise and we are grateful to them for doing so.

The OPW will also continue to maintain Clare Abbey as mandated under national monuments legislation and will respond to any alerts regarding anti-social behaviour as soon as information is brought to its attention.

I have an open mind in respect of what both of them have asked for, notwithstanding the limitations on putting in infrastructure. I am certainly open to any suggestions, as is the OPW, that either or both Deputies may make on this question.

Photo of Joe CareyJoe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State is a regular visitor to County Clare and indeed to Clare Abbey and I have been there with him. In fairness, a working group was set up between the OPW, Clare County Council, and the local stakeholders, including the Tidy Towns committee. I welcome the Minister of State's intervention, commitment and provision of the resource of a caretaker for Clare Abbey. In 2022, and in 2021, there were more than 60 incidents of fly-tipping with waste just thrown out on the side of the road have been recorded and reported to Clare County Council. It is very important that CCTV be provided in the vicinity of Clare Abbey in order that the culprits who are at this day in, day out, can be caught.

I pay enormous tribute to the chairperson of Clarecastle Tidy Towns committee, Mr. Christy Leyden, and the team of volunteers who work at this day in, day out. Their hearts are broken because of the wanton destruction that is happening because of this fly-tipping. CCTV is an answer and we are looking for the Minister of State's. support towards providing this to stamp out this unwanted activity.

Photo of Cathal CroweCathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I echo much of what Deputy Carey has said. This is a beautiful Augustinian abbey founded by Domnall Mór Ua Briain in the year 1195, who was king of Thomond. It is a fabulous building and it is almost a millennium old. It is, unfortunately, being damaged every weekend by antisocial behaviour, with people smashing beer bottles off headstones, cider parties; you name it, there is every kind of shenanigans going on there. It is grossly unfair to people like Christy Leyden and his committee who keep that place tidy but also to people who have family members buried there.

The Minister of State visited the site, and we are all very grateful for that, but CCTV has to be the answer. I cannot see any barrier to it. This is an OPW building here at Leinster House and we have a litany of CCTV cameras. A wireless system could also be installed. I did so myself on our farm at home two weeks ago and it took approximately an hour and a half. They are all battery operated and it does not in any way damage the integrity of an old, special, national monument building. We ask that the Minister of State might consider this and fast-track it

Photo of Patrick O'DonovanPatrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputies. Returning to Deputy Carey's original comment with respect to County Clare, the OPW has put a fairly big footprint in the county in the past number of years with the work we have done in Cloonlara, Ennis, Springfield, Lahinch and Kilkee on the flood risk side, notwithstanding all of the other issues we have. I acknowledge both Deputies for the support they have given the communities with the engagement of OPW have had, including in places such as Quin.

One of the issues that has been raised in my Department and is something that we will give further consideration to is data storage and collection, particularly CCTV footage and who would be the data controller. We have had a particular issue previously in the past, for instance, which Deputies will be aware of, in respect of the Limerick CCTV scheme.

I have an open mind on this. Where wireless and solar cameras are available, sometimes they can provide low resolution. We want to ensure that the obvious deterrent would be a people presence in the area. That has worked with the caretaker but I take the point made by Deputy Carey that 60 incidents of fly-tipping comes at a cost then to the local authority, the local community and the Tidy Towns groups, together with everybody else who has to clean it up. To be honest, the muck savages who are doing this in the first place are of no benefit to the people in County Clare and are certainly adding other than a significant cost that has to be borne by some body to clean up all of their mess, filth and the dirt they leave after them. This is not unique to Clare Abbey and we have had issues in County Meath also where some great luminaries go in and scratch their names on national monuments. So and so was here. Fair play to them but in a 1,000 years their name will be scratched on to it but the monument will have been destroyed. I will use this opportunity again to mention that the OPW has asked people, where possible, to engage with An Garda and the local authorities but I will certainly ask that a further engagement takes place between Clare County Council, OPW and An Garda of foot of the suggestions which have been raised by both Deputies here in the Dáil.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is the first time that I have heard muck savages used in that context and it is probably giving them too much recognition.

Photo of Patrick O'DonovanPatrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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If that is unparliamentary language, a Cathaoirligh Gníomhaigh, I will-----

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is not but it is just giving them too much recognition.

Photo of Joe CareyJoe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I recognise the work of the Minister of State and the OPW. In that area, the Ennis flood relief scheme, is very welcome. This multi-million euro project has been completed and formally opened by the Minister of State. I recognise his strong support for the River Fergus greenway, which was a tremendous success. We are looking to extend that greenway down to the Quay in Clarecastle also.

Could the Minister of State give a commitment that the OPW will provide some resource and that a joint venture will be entered into between Clare County Council and the OPW, whereby the OPW would provide money to pay for the installation of CCTV cameras? He will be aware of the Circular Economy and Miscellaneous Provisions Act which passed through the Houses of the Oireachtas in July past. I understand that the County and City Management Association must do some work to bring that into being. An amount will be needed and if the Minister of State could give that commitment here today, I would welcome it.

Photo of Cathal CroweCathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I also thank the Minister of State for his engagement today and for his frankness on this issue. I can think of one major building in Dublin that will shortly, probably, have its CCTV infrastructure removed. I daresay that the Chinese Communist Party might take more joy out of watching the shenanigans and the goings-on on the River Fergus than they might in this Chamber. Sometimes it can be more enlightening.

On a serious note, there is an issue here. I cannot see any GDPR, funding, planning, conservation or protection barriers to this. It needs a decision and such a decision to put up cameras could happen quickly, just like I did in the past week on my farm. They were put up in a matter of hours and are capturing footage. Only last weekend we had to ring the local gardaí. This can be very effective and can also be a deterrent. This would make a significant difference. This is an old building and unless we take affirmative action now to deal with it, this will only perpetuate and prolong this problem and we will be back here again and again.

I suggest we should take down the Chinese cameras in Leinster House and bring them down to Clare. They would be very welcome in their new home in Clare Abbey.

11:10 am

Photo of Patrick O'DonovanPatrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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With a national monument of this nature, ducting and underground cabling can be quite a difficult issue, especially if it involves high-resolution cameras. There is no power source at that location. Taking all that into consideration, the only commitment I will give is that we will re-engage with Clare County Council and An Garda Síochána on this. If we put up cameras, there needs to be a way to store the information and the use of that information must be in compliance with the laws on data storage. Deputies Carey and Cathal Crowe will appreciate that. However, other measures can be looked at in the short term. Lighting some of these national monuments does not come without its problems. If they are habitats for bats and things like that, we are not allowed put up floodlights, which often irks local communities but that is the reality. We need to have cognisance of what we are allowed to do within the context of the law with regard to national monuments. However, it is not tolerable that a national monument is being used as an open dump, as Deputy Carey said. I have heard plenty of anecdotal and local information about the severity of this from the people we met when we were down there. We will take it seriously and we will re-engage.

The site is proximate to one of the biggest investments that we made in Munster, the Ennis south flood relief scheme, and I am glad it has been acknowledged here today. Together with the three schemes in Ennis now, it protects a town of 25,000 people, the largest in Munster. It gives that town the potential to grow even further and link the greenway, which is on top of the embankments created by the OPW, directly into the site of Clare Abbey. I encourage Clare County Council to improve the signage. The more people that we get in there and off the motorway, the less likely it is that people will take it upon themselves to deliver their rubbish there. These people from County Clare or wherever are arriving, unwelcome, and tipping their crap all over the place. Instead, they should take it home and put it into their own dustbins.