Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I thought I saw a memo from the Ceann Comhairle stating the senior Minister is meant to notify the House if not available.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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We have a Minister of State.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That is not what the Standing Order states. It states the senior Minister should come to the House to reply to the question. This question is for the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Unfortunately, we have what we have.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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I have the answer. Tá an freagra agam.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State has made himself available and is prepared to reply. Deputy Ó Cuív has four minutes and is using them.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The Chair should report to the Ceann Comhairle that there has once again been a flagrant disregard for the Standing Order on Topical Issue matters.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I will ensure that is conveyed.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Under the Standing Order, I should have been given the option of either proceeding or waiting until the Minister was available. That is the Standing Order. I do not make the Standing Orders; the House makes them.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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We will convey that to the Minister. The Ceann Comhairle will be made aware of that as well. The Deputy has four minutes, which is gone.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That is a matter of procedure, not a matter of-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Anyway, proceed.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It is a year since the Ukraine war started and a flood of refugees started coming into the country. The past year has seen a huge increase in the number of asylum seekers coming here. I understand in excess of 85,000 people have come here from Ukraine and other countries seeking refuge. I commend the Government, Department and particularly the people on their response to this influx and the way accommodation has been provided throughout the State. However, I have noticed that in this country we often get the big things or polices right, as has been the case, but fail abysmally on the more detailed delivery. When people take on a burden, it is important the State pays them on time if it says it is going to pay them. The reality is the Department has failed to pay people on time and there are people who have been waiting months, perhaps with huge overheads and investment costs. This does not inspire confidence among bankers. Many of those affected depend on loans and funders. What is happening has great potential to put contractors off remaining in the system this spring and make them revert to offering holiday accommodation. This trend will be particularly acute in areas that are holiday destinations.

A very important role of the Government is always to pay people on time. Prompt payment should be adhered to absolutely. If the Department does not have the capacity to make the payments, it should farm out responsibility to those who do.

My suggestion is that it asks Pobal, an organisation that is totally controlled by the State, to make these payments because Pobal was already successfully given this devolved function by two Departments in respect of the rural social scheme and Tús scheme with regard to paying the wages. It was paying a large number of wages, which was quite complex, but it did so on time and all the time. The great thing about it was that this function was delivered from Pobal's office in Clifden in County Galway, which created some very considerable and welcome employment in that neck of the woods.

I suggest that the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth ensures that all centres housing refugees be paid up to date, without delay and as soon as possible. In the meantime, a clear outline of the timeline of outstanding payments should be given to each provider. They seem not to be able to get that basic information. The Department should expedite the development of a system to ensure that after that, all payments are made monthly, as they should be. Finally, the possibility of devolving this role to Pobal's office in Clifden should be pursued immediately. One should always go to people who have a proven track record that they can do the job.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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Since the outbreak of the war in Ukraine one year ago, and the invoking of the temporary protection directive by the European Union shortly afterwards, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has worked intensively as part of the cross-Government response to the Ukraine crisis.

The operational challenges brought about by responding to the conflict are significant. Our country has never experienced an influx of displaced persons like the one we have seen over the past 12 months. As the Deputy said, numbers seeking international protection have also increased, adding to accommodation capacity issues.

Overseeing provision of accommodation on this scale during this timeframe for all those who require it remains immensely challenging. Due to the urgent need to source accommodation, the Department has contracted in excess of 43,000 beds to accommodate beneficiaries of temporary protection with more than 720 providers, including hotels, guest houses, bed and breakfast accommodations, hostels, commercial self-catering accommodation, scout halls, religious congregations and certain other repurposed settings.

The unprecedented demand for accommodation and, by association, the level of transactions involved, is significant. With more than 750 contractors paid monthly, the payments process is an operation of considerable scale. The Department is obliged to ensure that invoices are correct and while some are straightforward, many require queries to the provider and additional documentation to confirm what is owed. I am not sure if the suggestion made by the Deputy will help to speed things up in any way given the scale of the challenge we have with this.

To provide some context of the scale of the Department’s payment activity, from the outset of the war to date, the Department has made in excess of 3,900 payments to a value of more than €600 million. The Department spent almost €520 million on Ukraine accommodation and related costs in 2022 alone. Of this, almost €200 million was paid out within November and December 2022, including close to 400 transactions in November to the value of €55 million and a further 475 transactions in December to the value of €143 million, which included a number of significant high-value payments. This points to the substantial ramping up of payments in recent months. In 2023 to date, 615 payments have been made to the value of €96 million.

I acknowledge that due to the quantum involved, some providers are experiencing delays in receiving payment. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is mindful of the impact and has been proactive in implementing a number of measures to substantially reduce the backlog. As was done for the backlog clearance in December, the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, has doubled the resources dedicated to this task since the start of the year. That figure is currently at 20 and increasing. This has begun to make a difference.

Furthermore, the Department has just completed a business optimisation process to enable outsourcing options to be pursued and ensure internal processes are as efficient as they can be, including for all process automation. The Department has already begun outsourcing certain aspects of invoicing work to Pobal agency staff both to work directly on clearing the backlog and to engage with providers with invoicing issues. Officials within the Department have also investigated the feasibility of using other shared services options, including the team who process the housing assistance payments, HAP, payments for local authorities and other commercial providers, to consider further outsourcing and enable an enduring model, which will ensure that despite the scale, payments can be made on time. The Department will continue to dedicate internal resources in the short term to clear the backlog and will pause or delay work in other areas within the Department, where necessary.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Obviously, the money is big; one would not expect otherwise. The number of providers is relatively small, however. There are 720 providers. I do not accept the argument that there were suddenly queries. I have raised questions on behalf of a number of providers and every time I raise a question, people come back and say they will be paid shortly. They never come back and say they are sorry, they raised queries and did not get replies or they have outstanding issues that they have to get clarified. They have not said that.

I have also received many complaints from providers saying they cannot get hard information as to when they will get paid. I find it hard to believe that people have not been paid for October and November of last year, for example, that there are outstanding queries, that those queries are not being answered and that people are ringing Deputies to find out where their payments are. As I said, the lie to that is the fact that in responses from the Department to parliamentary questions on this issue, people inevitably never raise that issue and just cite the amount of work.

I have a clear view that everybody is entitled to payment and it is up to the State to find a way to make that payment. If the Department did not have the resources, it should have outsourced it right from the beginning to relevant State agencies. I am not trying to give it to the private sector. We have plenty of bodies within the State that are used to making large numbers of payments efficiently, on time and all the time. Therefore, I hope the Minister of State will suggest to the senior Minister that he talk to Pobal. As I said, there is a particularly suitable office in Clifden. We need the jobs, the Government needs the work done and Pobal always deliver on time and all the time.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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I would again stress the importance of due diligence. That is why there are queries at times. As I said, the Minister has engaged with Pobal and the team that processes HAP. With regard to the International Protection Accommodation Service, IPAS, contracts are agreed in terms of capacity for an IPAS centre, as specified in the individual contract. Payments under the agreed contracts, inclusive of VAT, will be made every four weeks, as specified, and the Deputy mentioned that. This amounts to an all-inclusive sum in respect of provision of accommodation and all the other services outlined in the agreement. IPAS can confirm that all payments are made four weeks in advance. As of 28 February, there are currently no outstanding payments to IPAS accommodation providers.

The scale of the response and the challenges it presents extend not only to the initial provision of accommodation but also supporting ancillary systems. I have notes on the parliamentary questions and representations the Deputy made. I wish to reiterate that the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is conscious of the need to expedite payments. I understand the distress and frustration that payment delays can cause providers and regret that delays remain an issue despite the Department's best efforts.

The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth continues to pursue improvements. I can assure the House that the Department is according this issue the very highest priority. The Department is committed to maintaining a practice of more timely payments to ensure that all those who assist those fleeing this unjust war are paid for their services.

The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, wishes to acknowledge and thank the staff in the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth who are involved in processing invoices. As has been mentioned, the scale is, and continues to be, significant. Many people have worked extended nights and over weekends to assist in reducing the backlog. I thank them for their professionalism, dedication and commitment to helping to process as many payments as possible.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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With the agreement of Deputy Stanton, we will move on to the third Topical Issue matter from Deputy O'Reilly on the need for improved bus services in Fingal.