Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Leas-Cheann Comhairle and I thank the Minister of State for being here. This Topical Issue matter is exactly what it says on the tin. It is to discuss additional financial supports for people in the first two years of apprenticeships. I raise this matter because the first two years are the most crucial. I have been talking to many of the families involved, even as late as this evening when a gentlemen rang me whose query I will also raise. The family qualifies for a medical card because of their circumstances. One of the children is serving his time as an apprentice but the rate is so low that he feels, in the first instance, embarrassed that he cannot cope. He also feels he cannot be asking his parents for a sub, as we call it on the building sites, all the time.

In addition, there are no answers being provided. I made an inquiry today to see if it is possible to get a discretionary medical card in these circumstances because the cost of living is so high at the moment. Many of these apprentices start out on a very low rate and it is expensive for them to get to work. Years ago, people worked and did apprenticeships locally in their nearest town. I know one fellow who had to travel from Cork to be in Meath at 9.30 a.m. just to get his book stamped before coming back down to Cork. These are all added expenses.

We have a minimum wage but it does not apply to apprenticeships. The national minimum wage is €10.50 for those aged over 20, €8.40 for those aged 18 and €7.35 for those aged under 18. I picked out two rates of pay for apprentices, namely, construction and electrical, for which one would think there would be massive demand. For construction, the first-year rate for apprentices is €6.30 an hour and it is €9.47 an hour for the second year. That is not even the minimum wage rate for those aged over 20. In the electrical sector, the rate is €6.53 an hour for the first year and €9.97 for the second year, which is still below the national minimum wage. A national living wage of €13.80 or €13.85 has been called for. Is there is any possibility of addressing this issue because we are haemorrhaging young people at the moment?

To give my personal experience, in my own son’s class of 28, only three are still here. Four left two weeks ago. It is easier to head off to Canada and New Zealand, and some are even going to Dubai. This puts serious strain on the younger generation who are left behind and want to serve their time to get an apprenticeship and better themselves. It is so difficult to that in the first two years. I mentioned the possibility of providing discretionary medical cards. Can anything be done as regards providing a tool or meal allowance? I believe SOLAS only pays a travel allowance of €7. God only knows where people are going to or coming from when they are going back to school or college to serve their time.

I raise this issue because so many families are frustrated and feel they have been left on a ship without a rudder. They cannot give their children answers about how they can better themselves and survive. They are caught in a bind trying to convince their children to stay the course, serve their time and get a full apprenticeship. They tell them this will given them a better chance of improving their lives. That is the reason I am raising this issue. As I said, apprenticeships are becoming more and more popular. There is significant demand for them. We should all work together on this issue in the House. There is no reason we should not do so.

Niall Collins (Limerick County, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Buckley for raising this matter which is a very important for our Department.

Apprentices are primarily employees and all of the 66 available apprenticeships are undertaken under a contract of employment. For the majority of apprenticeships, the rate of pay is agreed between the apprentice and the employer, with the employer paying the apprentice during both on-the-job and off-the-job training elements of the apprenticeship.

For the 25 craft apprenticeship programmes, the minimum rates of pay applying under the employment contract are either agreed within the relevant sector or are set out in a legally binding sectoral employment order recommended by the Labour Court. These minimum rates vary between occupations and sectors but in all cases craft apprenticeship rates are expressed as a proportion of the qualified rate, increasing yearly from 33% of the qualified rate in year one to 90% in year 4.

Periods of off-the-job training are funded from the National Training Fund with payments of the agreed rate made directly to craft apprentices by the education and training boards during this time.

These training allowances are calculated with reference to gross wage norms payable in industry for the different trade sectors. The actual allowance received will generally be less as it is based on the net take-home pay calculated based on the gross wage norm. The gross wage norm is per week and the norm to be used is determined by the industry in which the employer is engaged. On that basis, any review of those rates currently payable is a matter for negotiation and agreement under the appropriate industrial relations structures in place and it would not be appropriate for me to be involved in the determination of apprenticeship pay or training rates.

While attending off-the-job training, craft apprentices are paid a training allowance appropriate to their training phase. In addition to training allowances, craft apprentices attending phases of off-the-job training in an education and training board, ETB, training centre, institute of technology, or technological university can apply for either travel or accommodation allowances for the duration of their off-the-job training.

Budget 2023 included a cost-of-living package for students and investment in third level education for 2023. Included in this was a once-off reduction of 33% to the student contribution fee paid by apprentices and additional funding for social inclusion measures in apprenticeships, such as a bursary for apprentices from the under-represented groups.

As employees, apprentices who find themselves in difficulty are correspondingly entitled to access general employment supports through the social welfare system. I also advise apprentices to discuss the matter with their authorised officer who may be in a position to provide advice and guidance.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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From all of the inquiries I have received - I will not say complaints - from people and families on the apprenticeship issue, nobody actually questioned their employer. These people are very happy. It is the small additional costs that are difficult.

I note the Minister of State mentioned the social welfare system. I see a problem with that. I am airing this issue to see if we can get some answers. Where both parents in a family are working in good jobs and the apprentice's brothers and sisters are in good jobs and still living at home, social welfare payments will be means-tested and the person serving his or her time will not get assistance in that instance. I understand the way the rates are structured, with qualified rates, etc., but I am looking at the long-term picture here. We need so many apprenticeships in this country. I am asking the Minister of State, although it may or may not be a question for his Department, if there is a way of improving the working conditions of apprentices, especially in the first two years when the rate is very low. It does not encourage people to go into an apprenticeship when, basically, they could sit on their backsides and claim jobseeker's allowance. Does the Minister of State understand my point? I am acting as a voice for parents who need answers and are asking if there are alternatives or ways to assist their children.

I know different criteria apply to certain crafts on the list but there are others serving their time whose craft will probably not be on this list. That is why I am asking this question. I was not expecting major answers. I welcome the access to information on social welfare. That at least is an avenue for people to ask questions and perhaps get answers. I appreciate the Minister of State’s time and his answer.

Niall Collins (Limerick County, Fianna Fail)
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I again thank Deputy Buckley for giving me an opportunity to set out my Department's view. In summary, while apprentices are excluded from the provisions of the National Minimum Wage Act 2000, as the Deputy mentioned, it is nonetheless important that they are supported financially for the duration of their training. The Deputy made that point very clearly and I am aware of it.

Recognising the importance of meeting Government apprenticeship registration objectives, as set out in the action plan for apprenticeship, and the possible implications of this matter for the recruitment and retention of apprentices, I assure the Deputy that the Department is engaging with partners to examine this issue comprehensively.