Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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8. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the number of new recruits to the Defence Forces; and the number of discharges in each of the years 2018 to 2022, inclusive. [4694/23]

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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13. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the strength of the Naval Service, Army and Air Corps in each of the years from 2020 to date, in tabular form; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5021/23]

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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22. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the initiatives he will be taking in relation to recruitment and retention in the Defence Forces; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [4739/23]

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise. Things moved a little quicker than expected. The number of new recruits to, and discharges from, the Defence Forces has been repeatedly mentioned in this House over the past ten to 15 years. I ask the Minister to outline what is the tipping point where he and the Department review all the efforts to date regarding retention and recruitment. Will they have an honest review that will state this is not working and we need to try something different?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 8, 13 and 22 together.

We had that meeting yesterday. I met with the military command and senior officials in my Department in respect of recruitment and retention.

The question before me refers specifically to attracting females to enlist in the Defence Forces and to feel fully respected. In terms of recruitment strategies generally, as I have already highlighted my immediate focus is on stabilising the staffing situation in the Naval Service, and thereafter on bringing the strength of the Naval Service and the Defence Forces generally to the numbers required to meet the agreed level of ambition arising from the report of the Commission on the Defence Forces. Within this commitment, I wish to confirm that it is Government policy to increase female participation rates at all levels across the Defence Forces.

The high-level action plan agreed by the Government on the report of the Commission on the Defence Forces contains a range of recommendations designed to assist in increasing female participation in the Defence Forces. A number of these recommendations have been identified as early actions, including the appointment of a senior gender adviser at colonel level, options for female participation at general staff level, a review of fitness standards, and the development of gender, diversity and unconscious bias training. These are critical recommendations which will underpin the commitment to moving to a strong representation by women across the ranks.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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You are reading the wrong reply.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Am I on the wrong one?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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You are giving the reply to Question No. 7.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Which one are we on?

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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Question No. 8

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise. I thought we had moved on to No. 7 but it was not taken. In any event, as I said, yesterday we had a meeting on recruitment and retention. Particularly with regard to the Naval Service we clearly have to stand back. We have taken measures. Pay and conditions were identified as issues over the past two to three years. There has been a lot of movement on the pay front. We have more work to do for those working in the Naval Service because the numbers are critically low. We need to move very quickly on recruitment for the Naval Service and develop different strategies. The Chief of Staff and others have clear views in respect of this.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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We have heard that various industries, from the pharmaceutical industry to the air industry to security companies to logistics companies, are head-hunting people out of the Naval Service. What we do not hear, and certainly what we do not see, is a corresponding intensity from the Government to be able to counter these challenges because they are very real.

Earlier when responding to Deputy Howlin the Tánaiste mentioned the LÉ Niamh. What he failed to mention is that the LÉ Niamhwill be placed into operational reserve on completion of a mid-life refit later this year. Two ships will remain in operational reserve until such time as the Naval Service has sufficiently regenerated suitably qualified and experienced personnel. This is included in the response to a parliamentary question I received from the Department yesterday.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I said that earlier.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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They are being mothballed.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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They are being mothballed. Once they are delivered to Ireland a plan will be developed to achieve initial operating capability for two inshore patrol vessels coming from New Zealand. I have to put it to the Tánaiste that waiting until we are looking at another two ships being mothballed and unable to put staff on them is not a coherent plan. It is not any form of a plan. The staffing arrangements for existing vessels, and any new one, need to be something on which the Department and the Tánaiste are focused on now.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We are focused on it now.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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Clearly you are not. You are still-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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What Deputy Clarke read out is what I gave in response to an earlier question from Deputy Howlin with regard to the LÉ Róisínand the LÉ Niamh. We have to continue to invest in the Naval Service.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We are mothballing ships. That is the problem.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deciding not to purchase ships-----

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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No-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is no point in saying we want to expand, develop and modernise the Naval Service, and then criticise the fact that we are purchasing two more ships particularly for inshore patrolling.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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There was no criticism. You have assets but you are failing to invest in the-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is part of the wider multifaceted approach that has to be taken to modernise our Naval Service and it impacts on recruitment and retention. We have moved on the pay rates, including military service allowances for the ranks of private three-star-----

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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It is still below most European countries.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, it is not. Able seamen start at €36,000 in the first year, rising to €37,000 in the second year and €39,000 in the third year. A graduate cadet on commission starts on €45,496 while a school leaver cadet starts at €40,000 while in full-time third level education.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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You are failing to mention the allowances. Until conditions are better-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is far in excess. This is in excess of comparable positions elsewhere.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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What the Tánaiste failed to mention is that while the pay may be slightly increased, the allowances and conditions are not being increased in line with comparable countries' defence forces or militaries. This is a fact. The Tánaiste can go and look it up if he needs to but it is a fact. We are haemorrhaging a level of skill from the Defence Forces, particularly the Naval Service which the Tánaiste mentioned, and losing a knowledge base that will take a significant period of time to replace. Nobody coming in the door to any job is able to carry out that job to the same level as somebody who has been there for ten or 15 years. This is specifically true when we look at the very specialised work that those in the Naval Service undertake. While the Tánaiste may be bringing in additional staff and focusing on getting the number back up to 9,500, he is not taking into account the impact that the loss of experienced staff has on ensuring that any training is done efficiently and speedily and that people are brought through to be fully serving members of the Defence Forces. There is a difference between being a member of the Defence Forces in training and someone carrying out the job they are due to do.

I have another question on staffing levels in the Defence Forces. How many posts of an ancillary nature in the Defence Forces are unoccupied?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We will provide tables to the Deputy on the various staffing levels. There is an urgency attached to this and we are moving on all fronts with regard to recruitment and retention. All morning I have heard no solution or any concrete recommendation from anybody over and above what is already being done.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The working time directive.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have clear commitments-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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They are in the commission's report and you are not implementing them.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and changes. There has been significant movement on the pay front. Deputy Clarke dismissed this but that is her wont coming from the Opposition perspective.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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It was not dismissed.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have to do more and we will do more to improve terms and conditions. This will improve the implementation of the working time directive.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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It is not on the legislative schedule.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are broader issues and challenges in terms of the modern economy and people being incentivised out of our services by other industries. This is a significant challenge for us given the full employment nature of the economy we have in this country. This is a further factor in what is taking place.