Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I am glad to have this opportunity to speak to the Minister of State. I engaged with her probably a year and a half ago, or more, on this particular issue. As she is aware, there are a number of families, mainly in south Leitrim, who have children with severe disabilities. Most of them are young adults at this stage and their parents are becoming quite elderly and are getting on. One of them, a neighbour of mine, in fact, passed away recently. This is really becoming a crisis for these families as they look to the future. This situation is a worry for them in many respects.

The Minister of State held a meeting at the end of May this year in the Bush Hotel in Carrick-on-Shannon and I want to thank her for that. We brought together all of the stakeholders, including the HSE, the service providers, the parents, people from the local authorities, local councillors and the other Deputies in the area. We came up with the bones of a solution to move the situation forward, and I commend the Minister of State on that.

We need to use a site in Carrick-on-Shannon, which is owned by the HSE, and which has been set aside to build a proper respite service for them. It was agreed at that meeting that a team would be put together to work on this. That team has been put together, has done some work and has met regularly, but I am not sure if a great deal of progress has been made. That is disappointing and I await the Minister of State’s reply in respect of that.

We need to see a proper residential care unit built on that site, together with a respite unit, because in some case these parents have had no respite for years. The nearest respite service they have is in Tullaghan in County Leitrim, which for many of them is a great distance away, and is very near Bundoran in County Donegal. We need to see this put in place immediately and we need a proper plan to be put together to build those services.

In the interim, until that is built, we need to have a respite service for these young people. We had a solution that day, which the Minister of State is aware of. We looked at the Cloonamahon site, which is near Collooney in County Sligo and is not a very significant distance from south Leitrim. This site was available. There are two purpose-built bungalows there, which were built 20 years ago and are fully kitted-out. At present they are used as residential units and there are six residents in those units. Work is currently under way to move those residents out into what is called a decongregated setting in the community. That is happening apace.

The units are purpose-built and comprise two five-bedroom bungalows. When we talked about what we were going to build, which would be HIQA-approved, figures being talked about were heading close to €1 million and yet these buildings are there, are being used and are HIQA-approved. On the day, the remark was made that all they needed was a lick of paint.

I have good news because a man called Ivor Parke, a local painter and decorator contracted by the HSE, went in less than two weeks ago and painted both of them from floor-to-ceiling. That has been done because the HSE evidently has a plan to turn these buildings into offices. The country is coming down with offices but we do not have a place to provide services for children and young people with disabilities. The person who came up with that idea needs to be dragged over the coals because to even talk about it is a scandal, never mind to even do it, considering that these purpose-built and HIQA-approved units are in place. All we need to do is to ensure we use them for respite services for the young people concerned.

I understand the HSE is going around the country trying to find private services to provide the services, which in many cases do not exist, or do not exist to the level of quality we would require and HIQA would approve. These buildings are there and they should be used. Apart from the problems these parents and families have, which is a pressing crisis we need to resolve, a secondary scandal would be if these two buildings were turned into office space. The Minister of State, or any other Minister, could not stand over allowing the people who have responsibility, as employees of the HSE, to provide services for people with disabilities, to do this. They need to block the use of these units as office space. It is scandalous that they would even think of doing such a thing.

I look forward to the Minister of State's reply. I hope she has good news, not for me but for these families who are at their wits' end in trying to get a solution to this crisis.

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for quite rightly giving us the opportunity to have this discussion. It is more than six months since I travelled to Carrick-on-Shannon to meet with parents - from what I understand, they represented many more parents - and public representatives. HSE representatives were present at the meeting on the day. When I reflect on it, we had a very good conversation. There was real energy in the room. My script does not reflect what I am about to say.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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It might reflect some of it but not all. We had a very good conversation in that room. I felt there was energy and pace in the room to find a solution. My goal in travelling was to find a solution for the people of County Leitrim, especially the people of south Leitrim, whose options were very limited. In fact, they had none. I acknowledge the role of local authority members who were present at that meeting. They were tasked with a job, which was to find a site and to see whether sites were available. All of a sudden, they found sites. They found HSE sites that were available. That has been set in train and a development group has been set in place. We will take that.

While that is being developed, the Deputy is correct that we also identified Cloonamahon as an option for transitional space in the interim because we know that Tullaghan is operating on five over seven nights. Even if we moved Tullaghan to seven over seven nights, it means that 136 families will need to access it. No matter what respite service I open, it will not exceed supporting more than 80 families so there is a shortfall of 56. With the best will in the world, going to seven over seven is part of the solution but it still does not meet the whole of the solution. The Deputy is quite right that it was agreed on that day, and HSE estates representatives said clearly at the meeting, that they could go in to the building at Cloonamahon, give it a lick of paint and make it functional.

From talking to Ms Edel Quinn, HSE head of disability services for the area, for whom I have huge time and respect - I spoke to her at 3.30 p.m. today - the building will not be operationalised to support many of the families because people with higher-sized wheelchairs might not be able to access the building. I take that on board because she is the lead and everything else. However, it will be able to support many more people, as it should. If Tullaghan is the place where larger-sized wheelchairs have to go, they will be prioritised to go there but, in the interim, we should use one of those bungalows that would support families and be the only met need in south Leitrim.

The Deputy is not alone in his ask because his colleagues, including Deputy Marc MacSharry and the Minister of the State at the Department of Health, Deputy Feighan, have advocated the same piece. Common sense and a dose of reality needs to come in. We have a building that can provide support while we are constructing a new purpose-built, respite and residential facility in Carrick-on-Shannon. My ask of Ms Quinn was to go back again today. Her ask of me was to engage with the CEO of HIQA to ensure that HIQA would give the HSE a delegated function to operate on the site. I need HIQA to approve operation on the site of one of those bungalows so that while we are de-congregating the other building could be used. We have gone to HIQA this evening to find out whether we can get a derogation. Could one of those bungalows be used while we decongregate? I will engage further with the Deputy in my next response.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I acknowledge the Minister of State's work in respect of this. My frustration is that on the day - the Minister of State is right to say we had a very good meeting, there was energy in the room and we felt that everybody was on the same page - I detected a little hesitancy on the part of some of the HSE officials to use Cloonamahon. I did not know or understand why. I still do not understand why. The prospect that there may be difficulty with some oversized wheelchairs needs to be examined. Maybe that is the case. I am not sure if that is the case. I would have to be convinced that problem exists there because these bungalows were built 20 years ago. This is not something that goes back to Victorian times like the rest of the building, which houses an old convent. This is a modern, new building. It has hoists in place, rails in the ceilings and everything is there. It is HIQA approved, as it stands, and yet there is this reluctance to use it. The Minister of State mentioned "in the interim" until we get the others built. It should never ever be used for anything else other than providing services for which it was built in the first place. If that ever happens, it would be a scandal.

I take the Minister of State's word that we can move quickly but we now have a Christmas break. When we return after Christmas, whether she is in the same role, which we will not get into, and regardless of who is in that position, I want to see a proper respite service in place for those families that is convenient for them, works for them and that they are satisfied with. There is huge dissatisfaction and despair among all those parents I have spoken to and engaged with over the past couple of years. There is a major problem here. It is so easy to fix it and yet there is this hesitancy to fix it.

We sometimes ask why people in senior positions in the HSE and other places do not do their jobs. Sometimes I think what needs to happen is people need to be given their P45s and told to get out the door if they do not do their jobs. If the State is sued, loses and has to take that cost, it is a hit the State should take because the next person who gets that job will do his or her job, as that individual will know there are consequences for not doing it. That is what it is down to. There are people in this State in senior positions who, for some reason or other, will not do what they are paid to do. In this case, these people are paid to provide services for people with disabilities and they should bloody well do it.

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I again thank the Deputy for giving me the opportunity to discuss this matter. It is also very important to recognise, when we talk about the HSE, that two, three or four different rule books are in operation. The operational side of the HSE has a different rule book from the estates side of the HSE. They go at two different paces and have two different ways of delivery. To be very fair to the director of services for the south Leitrim area, she wants nothing more than to ensure that there is plenty of adequate respite care for the people of Leitrim. That is for sure.

HSE estates representatives were at the meeting that day. The Deputy is correct that there has been a reluctance since then because two different answers were given. One was about going in with the paint brush and the other was about saying, "Hold on. Maybe we cannot do this because of HIQA, this, that and the other". That is where my office has intervened.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Excuses, excuses.

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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My office staff have contacted HIQA to see if we can get that derogation. There is a good building there. There is a building that can be used by the families who need access to it. The funding is provided to allow Tullaghan go from five over seven to seven over seven. Funding is there as well to-----

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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It is not suitable. It is too far away.

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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There is also funding. If it is a fact that wheelchairs are an issue, there is choice. We need to ensure that everybody has fair and equitable access to services. The bus system issue has also been addressed. An issue raised at the meeting was that a bus would be provided. We have addressed the bus issue, we have gone to seven over seven, and we are waiting for HIQA to come back with a derogation for the site at Cloonamahon to be accessed and used in conjunction, while de-congregation is taking place at pace. That is my answer to the Deputy - "at pace".

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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The house they were using at Carrick-on-Shannon up to now was a tiny house. It was a standard, ordinary bungalow but it has been used for respite services-----

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I take that on board.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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-----for all those families.

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I take the point.