Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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58. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills the actions that have been taken to further the budgetary commitment to providing free schoolbooks at primary level; if she has engaged with the relevant stakeholders since this announcement; and if she will outline the model that will be put in place. [58461/22]

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am encouraged by the commitment to free schoolbooks. Myself and Sinn Féin have raised this issue for several years at budget time. I regularly make the point that we are 70 years behind the North in that.

To get that delivered is not just a case of announcing it. We need to know what the model will be, where suppliers, publishers and so on fit in, and how schools will manage it. Could the Minister tell us a bit more about that?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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The Government recognises the cost of preparing children for school each September can be a financial difficulty and challenge for many families. Therefore, as part of budget 2023, I announced over €50 million to provide free books to primary school pupils within the free education system from September 2023. This measure will eliminate the cost to these families of all schoolbooks at primary school, including workbooks. It delivers on the programme for Government commitment to extend the free schoolbook pilot, currently in 102 DEIS primary schools, as resources permit. The free primary schoolbooks scheme will benefit up to 540,000 pupils in approximately 3,240 recognised primary schools, including over 130 special schools.

The implementation of the measure will build on the existing schoolbook rental scheme, which is available in some 94% of recognised primary schools. It also builds the free schoolbooks pilot I mentioned.

My officials are continuing to engage on how the scheme will operate. Initial contact has been made with some of the education partners on the measure. Over the coming period, my Department will be engaging further with the education partners and other stakeholders to roll out the measure in sufficient time for the 2023–24 school year.

Guidance on the procurement of books will be developed as part of our further engagement process with schools, parent and management bodies and other stakeholders on this measure. The scheme will seek to ensure that value for money is achieved and that schools will be supported to implement the scheme in a way that has the best learning outcomes for pupils. Schools will continue to have autonomy to choose books that meet curricular requirements. My Department will consider the information from the 102 schools involved in the free schoolbook pilot when developing the guidance on the procurement of books.

It is planned that funds will be provided to schools to purchase schoolbooks and related classroom resources. Schools buy books directly from schoolbook suppliers at present as part of the implementation of the schoolbook rental scheme. Ninety-six percent of primary schools participate in the scheme.

As Minister for Education, I am acutely aware of the costs faced by families upon the return of their children to school each September. This will be a ground-breaking measure.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I share the Minister's sense of the value of the measure. It is a shame that it was not extended to post-primary level, where the books are more expensive, but we will have that debate another day.

The question I still have concerns how the arrangement will work. It does not seem there is any clear sense of that. It is two months since the budget. I presume this was discussed within the Department for some time before the budget. The Minister talks about the education partners. Who they are is not a vague concept but a very specific one. Typically, it does not include the publishers or bookshops. Do not get me wrong - I believe they should not have a veto by any manner or means. Our priority needs to be to ensure the delivery of books free to children. The views of the booksellers and publishers can be taken on board but ultimately we need to decide what is in the best interest of children.

With regard to how we are going to roll this out, I presume discussions are necessary with the groups. Therefore, has the Minister met any of the publishers or bookshop owners regarding how books will be got from the printing press into the children's hands? I am not clear on that.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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On the Deputy's reference to post-primary level, if we had an abundance of money, we would-----

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am not seeking to get into that.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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No, but I am just making the point. A sum of €50 million is available to me. I am beginning the process at primary level but it is my hope and expectation that it will in time progress to post-primary level. We already have a very successful book rental scheme, operated by 96% of our schools.

With regard to engaging with book publishers and booksellers, schools will have autonomy regarding how they engage. If they wish to engage with a local distributor, they may do so. I made that very clear when I make my announcement and continue to do so.

There are lessons to be learned from the book rental scheme. There are also lessons to be learned from the pilot programme we have run for DEIS schools. All of that has been brought to bear. Initial discussions have taken place with the partners in education, and these will continue. The engagement will be fully consultative. I am very clear about the fact that individual schools will be free to continue with local arrangements, including through local bookshops, if they so wish.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I want to see this succeed but it all has the ring of "It will be all right on the night." The Minister refers to the education partners but she has not challenged me on, or disputed, the fact that they do not include the publishers or booksellers. I am open to being challenged on this. It does not seem there have been any discussions.

The Minister's reference to autonomy indicates there is a relatively decentralised model and that schools will be provided with a fund with which to procure the books. Am I picking that up right or will there be an element of central procurement? Will there be tendering? Obviously, the money is significant when we consider the needs of the whole State and also EU procurement rules.

It is fair enough to state the book rental scheme is good but that is not the same as free schoolbooks or what the Minister talked about. It is a step along the way but not where we need to go to. I really hope we see what I want in September but I am a little worried about the lack of preparation, or at least the lack of a clear sense as to how this will work. Having listened to the Minister, I believe there could be any number of things.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy, given his position as education spokesperson, will appreciate more than most the value of engaging across the table on any departmental initiatives. That has been a feature of everything we have done, particularly since I became Minister. That engagement will continue. It will specifically include, in respect of the working out of this, the lessons learned from what we did in the past, namely, the book rental scheme and the DEIS scheme, under which there were free schoolbooks. A variety of options have been put on the table regarding central procurement. It is also a matter of ensuring autonomy within the schools. All of those options are being analysed and worked through in the Department with the partners in education, and, obviously, it will be-----

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is more than just the Department of Education.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I have just said "with the partners in education". Any further discussions required with interested parties and central parties will take place. However, the first step is to engage with the partners in education.

Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Tá an t-am istigh. Níl an Teachta Gannon i láthair. Mar sin, bogfaimid ar aghaidh go dtí Ceist Uimh. 60, in ainm an Teachta Ó Laoghaire.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Who the education partners are is very clear.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Let us be clear that this should be led by the Department of Education and education partners.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Of course, but-----

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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The service providers will be consulted in due course.

Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Táimid ag bogadh ar aghaidh go dtí Ceist Uimh. 60 anois.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Excuse me. That was probably out of order. I accept that.