Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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12. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the matters that were discussed when he met with his counterparts at the recent EU defence Ministers meeting in Brussels; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [58138/22]

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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On Tuesday last week, the Minister met with his counterparts at the EU defence Ministers meeting in Brussels. The Council launched the EU training mission of the Ukraine armed forces. Josep Borrell, the high representative of the EU for foreign affairs and security policy is reported as saying that up to 15,000 Ukrainian soldiers will be trained in different member states. Austria has decided not to participate because it is a neutral state, yet Ireland is participating in a full-spectrum military training mission of an army that is involved in a war. How is that not a breach of neutrality?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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It is not a breach of neutrality, just like us providing funds through the European peace facility to help Ukrainian defence forces protect their people is not a breach of neutrality either.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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That is-----

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We are not aligned militarily but we are absolutely entitled to take sides. In my view, if we had not taken sides in this war we would effectively be taking the side of the oppressor. I do not believe the Irish people would support that course of action.

The most recent Foreign Affairs Council in defence ministers' format took place in Brussels on 15 November. There were three items on the agenda: a working session on current affairs; a working session on defence capabilities and operational realities; and a working lunch focusing on an informal exchange of views with the Minister of Defence of Ukraine and the NATO Secretary General, Jens Stoltenberg.

The current affairs session covered a range of topics including: the EU military assistance mission in support of Ukraine; possible Common Security and Defence Policy, CSDP, engagement in Niger; Operation Atalanta; the EU Rapid Deployment Capacity; and the current financial situation of the European Peace Facility.

The second working session marked the first annual ministerial discussion on defence capabilities and operational realities, as committed to in the framework of the Strategic Compass.

The meeting closed with a working lunch and informal exchange of views focusing on Russian aggression against Ukraine, including its global implications. The Ukrainian Minister of Defence participated by video teleconference to brief Ministers on the latest developments as well as Ukrainian priorities and needs on the ground.

In advance of the Foreign Affairs Council in defence ministers' format, I attended a meeting of the European Defence Agency steering board where Ministers exchanged views on the main findings of the 2022 Coordinated Annual Review on Defence, CARD, report in the areas of defence spending, defence planning and defence co-operation.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank the Minister.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Will I have time to come back or are we closed off? It is important to get this on the record.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Maybe, just to-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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We can go back and forth

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I will not be allowed.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is not that the Minister is not allowed; it is that I must comply with the time limits. Deputy Murphy is entitled to come in now.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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I want to hear from the Minister because what is happening is a full-scale military training mission. To quote from the Council of the EU press statement, the aim of the mission "is to enhance the military capability of the Ukrainian Armed Forces". The fact sheet states that includes operational training; preparation of companies, battalions and brigades in collective manoeuvres and tactics up to battalion level; and advice on the planning, preparation and conduct of live firing exercise. I do not see how participating in military training of an army that is involved in a war is not a breach of military neutrality. Austria is not participating because it is militarily neutral. I presume the Minister will say we will be involved just in training in de-mining. Can he give a guarantee that is all Irish troops will be involved in, or could this expand? Does he not accept that there should be a vote in Dáil Éireann on participation in a conflict? Participation in any war requires a vote in Dáil Éireann under the Constitution. Training one side in a war surely constitutes participation.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Minister agree, taking into account his recent comments on the triple lock and the fact that we will now be part of a military training mission and military funding in a war situation rather than participating in peacekeeping, that it would be timely for the Oireachtas to set up a joint committee to see how best Ireland can fulfil its constitutional obligations under Article 29 of the Constitution, which specifically commits us to peaceful resolution of international disputes?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I spoke about this at some length last night in the Seanad. I have given a clear commitment to the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence that I would discuss with the committee the way in which I believe the triple lock mechanism should evolve. I do not believe that it is okay to continue on the basis of relying on a UN Security Council mandate to send Irish troops abroad if that mandate may be blocked by the use of the veto, given current tensions between P5 member states of the Security Council. I do not believe that Russia, China or any other P5 member should have a veto over where Irish troops go. That is all. We are not proposing to change the long-standing policy of military non-alignment and military neutrality and we are not breaching that policy in helping Ukraine to defend itself against aggression. I would like to see this House be more critical of the aggressor in this war rather than the country that is trying to defend its people and whose capital city-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Táimid thar am.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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-----was 70% in the dark last night because of the deliberate targeting of civilians-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Minister, we are way over time.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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Can the Minister give a guarantee that we will be involved only in training in de-mining?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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-----by a country that Deputy Murphy does not seem willing to criticise.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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I ask the Minister to answer the question. Will he give a guarantee that it will be only de-mining?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Instead the Deputy is focused on criticising a Government decision to help a country to defend itself and its people.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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Will the Minister please give a guarantee that it will be only de-mining?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Thank you, Deputy.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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Will the Minister please answer the question?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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There is no finalisation as to what the role will be but-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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There is no guarantee then. I thank the Minister.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Leas-Cheann Comhairle is standing. That is the end of questions to the Minister for Defence. Thank you. Táimid thar am. Thug mé deis daoibh teacht isteach. Bhí solúbthacht i gceist - I gave flexibility - and we are now way over time.