Dáil debates

Tuesday, 22 November 2022

Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions

Northern Ireland

11:00 pm

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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82. To ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade the outcome of his most recent discussions with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in relation to properly dealing with legacy issues; the status of the Stormont House Agreement; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [57737/22]

Photo of Pauline TullyPauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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109. To ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade if he will give a commitment to take an inter-state challenge directly to the European Court of Human Rights if the British Government enacts the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill, as called for by an organisation (details supplied); if preparations have begun to take an inter-state challenge given that this needs to be commenced within a four-month timeframe of the Bill becoming law; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [57826/22]

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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It is utterly deplorable that the British Government has made a unilateral decision to abandon the Stormont House Agreement. That was a solemn agreement made between the British and Irish Governments and the political parties represented in Stormont. That agreement had the capacity to make progress in dealing with very important and sensitive issues. Progress on legacy has been delayed for far too long. It is a retrograde step that the British have proposed legislation that is totally unacceptable to replace the Stormont House Agreement.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 82 and 109 together.

I met with the Secretary of State most recently on 2 November and the progress of the UK's Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill was one of the topics discussed.  In all of our discussions, I have been frank in my view that this Bill, as it stands, is not fit for purpose. It represents a clear move away from the Stormont House Agreement.  There is near universal opposition to this Bill in Northern Ireland, including from the five main political parties, those representing victims, their families and survivors, as well as a wide range of other groups. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission has expressed serious concern about the Bill, as has the UK Parliament’s own joint committee on human rights. The Government has serious doubts about whether this Bill is compliant with the European Convention on Human Rights.  We have raised our profound concerns about this Bill directly with British Government, at official and political level, and in the relevant multilateral fora, including the Council of Europe and, most recently, at the universal periodic review of the UK by the UN Human Rights Council.

Chief among those concerns is that the Bill provides for the granting of immunity by the proposed independent commission for reconciliation and information recovery for gross violations of human rights and the remarkably low threshold for the granting of this immunity.  The proposed immunity has profoundly upset families, with many believing that this legislation would protect the perpetrators and deny victims a path to truth and justice, particularly where evidence may exist. The Bill provides for the proposed "independent commission" to conduct "reviews" rather than investigations of legacy cases. The status of these reviews, the significant powers invested in the commission and the chief commissioner, and the role of the Secretary of State raise questions of independence. All remain matters of serious concern. Under the proposed legislation, all criminal investigations and inquests that are not at an advanced stage and civil actions would cease.

The Government will remain fully engaged on this issue. I have discussed the matter with political parties in Northern Ireland and in my recent engagements with senior US politicians in Washington DC. I also recently met with the Northern Ireland Commission for Victims and Survivors and members of the Victims and Survivors Forum. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has indicated that he is open to addressing concerns raised about the Bill and to increased engagement with all stakeholders. It was agreed at the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference in October that officials would meet and discuss the main elements of concern. However, I have been clear that any amendments would need to be radical and fundamentally change the substance of this Bill for it to address our concerns.

The Government is aware of calls for consideration of the initiation of an inter-state case against the United Kingdom before the European Court of Human Rights in relation to this legislation. Any future examination by the European Court of Human Rights as to whether this Bill, if enacted, is compliant with the United Kingdom’s obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights will depend on the precise terms of the legislation as enacted and the factual circumstances pertaining at the time. In this light, a decision as to the referral of an inter-state case to the court by Ireland concerning the Bill, which remains subject to amendment, is, in the Government’s assessment, premature. However, the Government continues to keep this matter under review. The Government’s approach to legacy and reconciliation has always been that it should be a victim-centred approach, taking the Stormont House Agreement as its starting point. This is a process that was agreed by both Governments, and most political parties in Northern Ireland, with the support of victims' and survivors' groups.

I have had a constructive discussion with the new Secretary of State on this issue. I do not know whether it will be possible for us to come to an agreement on amending and changing this legislation fundamentally. On an issue as sensitive as legacy, given the trauma and pain that it is linked to for so many thousands of families, this is something the two Governments, working with parties in Northern Ireland and with victims' groups, should try to agree a common approach on. Unilateral action and moving ahead without the support of virtually anybody is a real mistake by the British Government, if it chooses to do it. I welcome the conversations I have had with the Secretary of State, Chris Heaton-Harris, who has shown a willingness to look at possible change. I hope that will be possible.

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for his reply and I welcome the Government's ongoing strong opposition to this deplorable legislation. It has united all the political parties on this island, all advocacy groups and all groups that have worked with victims over the years. As the Minister quite rightly said, it is perpetrator-focused. It is not victim-centred. We cannot successfully deal with legacy issues unless it is victim-centred. It has to be victim-focused. I welcome the recent statements by the archbishops of Armagh, who made a very cogent and strong argument against the legislation. This British legislation proposes that perpetrators of heinous crimes, be they murderers from paramilitary organisations or murderers from the British state forces, be able to give themselves an amnesty from the most heinous crimes, including murders, bombings and maimings of innocent people.

Any legislation of that sort cannot be accepted.

11:10 pm

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I agree. I have been holding the line on this issue because I believe that not to do so would be to dishonour the commitments we have made to victims on all sides. I have repeatedly said to victims' families that we cannot support legislation that shuts off the opportunity to take a case should there be an evidence base that allows for that to happen in the future. The idea that we would effectively introduce an amnesty so that people who perpetrated awful crimes could potentially talk and write about that, glorify those actions in the future and have no possibility of a case being taken is not protecting victims or helping Northern Ireland to move on into a period of reconciliation. Privately and publicly, I have appealed to the British Government to work with us on this. We will try to accommodate some of its concerns, but it needs to listen to victims in particular.

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate the Minister's very strong words. I commend the work of Joanna Cherry MP, other MPs and Members of the House of Lords in the context of their strong condemnation of the British Government's proposals. The Minister will recall that we had many discussions in private, in the House and at committee regarding the Dublin-Monaghan bombings of 1974 and the terrible bombing at Belturbet in my constituency in December 1972 in which two innocent teenagers were murdered. I, along with families, have campaigned for decades to get to the truth. People have gone about with great grace and dignity to try to get the truth about who carried out murders and serious crimes against their loved ones. Under no circumstances could any democratic government put a proposal to families that they abandon everything they fought for over the years and decades. Some people have been fighting for half a century.

I want the Government to continue its strong opposition to the proposal in question. We cannot accept a situation whereby murderers would be given a de factoamnesty. The Bill should be dropped entirely. We should go back to the Stormont House Agreement that has the potential to deal with the campaigns for justice for the Dublin-Monaghan and Belturbet bombings and the families we all want to assist.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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On behalf of the Government, I would like to work with the British Government, victims' groups and political parties to ensure we could have an approach to legacy that involved the provision of information, the taking of cases and cross-Border co-operation on the island and in Great Britain in order that we could respond to the concerns expressed by many in the unionist community regarding the activity of gangs that operated across the Border and so on. If the British Government moves ahead with what it is doing, however, we cannot and will not support it. On that basis, we cannot provide the cross-Border co-operation that is needed to establish truth and justice for people who are seeking that where it is possible to do. For many reasons, we need the British Government to rethink its approach in the space. If it does, it will find that the Government will work constructively to help it.

Question No. 83 taken with Written Answers.