Dáil debates

Thursday, 10 November 2022

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

 

12:00 pm

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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A Thánaiste, ní chreideann an tAire Tithíochta, Rialtais Áitiúil agus Oidhreachtagur cás éigeandála í an ghéarchéim tithíochta cé go bhfuil méadú ar chíosanna, ar chostais agus ar phraghas tithíochta, agus ar líon na ndaoine atá gan dídean.

On Tuesday night, the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage claimed there is not a housing emergency. I am sure that anyone who heard that remark was aghast at the suggestion we do not have a housing emergency in this country. Yet, the Taoiseach thinks he is doing a great job. The Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, is the only Fianna Fáil Minister the Taoiseach has guaranteed will stay in his post, despite him repeated failing in that post. Rents and house prices are rising and homelessness is at record levels but the Taoiseach thinks the Minister is playing a blinder. This is the level of delusion that surrounds housing in the Government. It is not just me saying that. I want to share with the Tánaiste some of the stories from young people who have contacted us in recent days to illustrate the reality of the housing crisis and the impact it is having on people's lives. One said:

I am living with my parents who are close to retirement age. Living at home in my mid-30s puts a strain on our relationship and a strain on my mental health. It seems for my entire adult life there has been a recession or a housing crisis in this country.

Another person stated:

I am 32-year-old. I work as a clerical officer and have been saving for years with my boyfriend and we cannot afford these high house prices.

Another person stated:

I'm 29, my partner is 31. We're both in good, full-time jobs and we have saved a thirty thousand euro deposit for house. We cannot get a mortgage. We're now considering moving to Canada.

Another person stated:

I love my country and I wish I could stay. It's just sad I can't afford to stay in the country I was born and raised in.

That is only a sample of the young people who responded to our recent housing survey. These are people who are living through the reality of the shambolic approach to housing the Government has taken for more than a decade. Those are the words of real people who are living in the real world unlike the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage who says there is no housing emergency and the Taoiseach who think his Minister is playing a blinder.

An analysis carried out by the IrishDaily Mailshows that the Government's housing targets are too low and pent-up demand will outstrip planned supply. Sinn Féin has been telling the Government that for years. We have repeatedly brought forward proposals to deal with the emergency we face. The Government cannot even meet the embarrassingly low targets it has set. The Minister, Deputy O'Brien, promised over 26,000 new-build social homes by the end of 2022. So far, less than half that amount have been delivered. We were promised 4,100 affordable homes by the end of this year. To date, only 925 affordable homes have been delivered. That is why house prices are going through the roof. It is why rents are soaring and homelessness is at an all-time high. Does the Tánaiste accept there is a housing emergency? Does he agree that the so-called Housing for All plan is not working? Will he commit to ensuring a new plan is brought forward that gets to grips with the crisis in housing and is delivered within timeframes that are acceptable?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. I agree there is a housing emergency and have said so in the past. I agree there is a housing crisis, which is a term I have used in the past. However, competing with each other to find new and more dramatic words to describe the housing challenge does not build any houses or solve problems for any of the people the Deputy mentioned in his contribution. What we require is housing action, and that is what we are doing, led by the Minister, Deputy O'Brien. We are implementing Housing for All, which is a good strategy that I believe is working. I will give the Deputy a few reasons why I think that is the case. We will exceed our targets for building new homes in Ireland this year. Roughly 28,000 new homes will be built in Ireland this year. That is not numbers; that is 28,000 families who will be living in a house this Christmas that did not exist last Christmas. It was not long ago that only 4,000 or 5,000 were being built in Ireland per year. We have seen a dramatic increase in the number of new homes being built. It is not enough, however, and we need to go further and higher in the years to come.

This year, we will provide more new social housing than has been provided in any other year in the history of the State. People often talk about all the homes that were built by councils and housing bodies in the 1920s, the 1950s, the 1970s and the 1980s. There is not a year in the history of the State that we will have built and provided more social housing than this year. That is a significant achievement. However, it is not enough and we need to do much more.

Many people do not know this but it is really important. In the past 12 moths, 15,000 first-time buyers, mostly couples, have bought their first homes. That is the highest number in 15 years. That is significant but it is not enough and we need to build on it and do even more.

When it comes to helping people with the cost of rent - I agree it is a real challenge for many people - we are bringing in the rent tax credit, which the Deputy has advocated for in the past. That will mean €1,000 for a single, tax-paying renter and €2,000 for a tax-paying renting couple. That will put the best part of a month's rent or more back in people's pockets. That is something for which the Deputy has called and that we are making happen. It is actions that matter, not the words used.

As long as a year and a half ago, I said that we should aim to build 40,000 new units per year. That target is contained in the Housing for All plan. We want to ramp up as quickly as we can to 40,000 units per year. We acknowledge that since those targets were set, the population has increased faster than we thought. We have welcomed 62,000 Ukrainians to Ireland. Many of them will stay and more will arrive. Our economy is growing faster than anyone expected. New households are forming all the time, particularly smaller households. We are absolutely going to review those housing targets with a view to increasing them next year. Let me be clear about the targets. We are going to exceed our new housing target this year through the building of 28,000 new homes. However, we do not congratulate ourselves for exceeding a housing target. It is a not a matter of meeting a target, ticking a box and thinking it is great. We need far more housing in Ireland. We probably have a deficit of 70,000 or 80,000 homes. If we could build them overnight, we would. There is no lack of money being put into the area. There is no lack of political will. However, we are dealing with real constraints, including the availability of labour, materials and serviced sites. No matter who is in government, they are going to have to deal with those real constraints. There is no lack of money, effort, care, compassion or political will. However, there are real constraints with which anyone would have to deal.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste has had 12 full years to deal with those constraints. As we now approach the end of 2022, house prices have never been as high in the history of the State. Rents have never been as high. Homelessness figures, which include 4,000 children, have never been as high in the history of the State. Thousands of people, who are contacting all of us, are locked out of homeownership. People cannot afford to get by. They are seeing rents increase over and over again. The Government continues to refuse to bring in a rent freeze. Is it not now time to accept, after nearly three years in government, that the plan is failing? House prices, rents and homelessness have gone up. I do not know what the Tánaiste is using to measure success but to my mind, that is failure.

A whole generation is locked out and is desperate. It is time to look at real delivery and bring forward a plan that actually expedites the delivery of social, affordable and cost-rental housing. The Government is blatantly failing to meet the targets. Less than half of the social housing that was promised by the Government, and only a quarter of the affordable housing, will be delivered this year. This is failure on any scale. Is it not time to stop defending a Minister and his failed plan, and instead come up with a better plan that actually delivers and listen to what we in the Opposition have been putting forward?

12:10 pm

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is right about something. My party has been in office for the past 12 years. In fairness to Fianna Fáil and the Green Party, they have not been in office for so long - only three years. However, there is no party in this House that has been in office on this island more than the Deputy's party. Sinn Féin has been 20 years in office on and off in Northern Ireland, with a Sinn Féin finance minister, a Sinn Féin housing minister and a Sinn Féin joint head of government to use its own terms. What is happening in Northern Ireland? House prices are going up and rents are going up. To use Sinn Féin's own figures, 20,000 people are homeless. If we have failed, surely Sinn Féin has failed worse and for longer. What are Sinn Féin's criteria for failure? Does it apply one standard for us and another standard for itself? That seems to be its metric and its approach to everything - one standard for the Government and a different standard for Sinn Féin.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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If the Tánaiste thinks housing in Derry is similar to housing in Dublin, then he is delusional.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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That is true when it comes to ethics. It is true when it comes to finances - both Sinn Féin Deputies' personal finances and that party's finances - as well as its policies.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste is delusional.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Maybe he does not understand how the Assembly runs.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Táimid ag bogadh ar aghaidh-----

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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He is delusional if thinks housing in Derry is similar to housing in Dublin.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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I know that today the Tánaiste will be feeling relieved that the Standards in Public Office Commission, SIPO, has announced it will not be investigating his leak of a draft GP contract to one of his friends back in April 2019. In a statement last night, he said he had been cleared of "any breach of ethics or standards". I can understand why he said that, but it would be much more accurate to state that SIPO has decided that it does not have the authority to investigate this matter. SIPO noted that the Tánaiste had said his leak of the contract was done in his capacity as Taoiseach and it stated that it has no remit to inquire into "the extent of the powers of the office of Taoiseach". It also important to mention that was not a unanimous decision by SIPO. Two of the commissioners were of the view that they could investigate the Tánaiste and a sixth recused herself.

While the Tánaiste views this decision as good news for himself, it raises a number of very important questions. For a start, does SIPO have the power to investigate complaints about the actions of taoisigh at all or does the office of Taoiseach protect its inhabitants from scrutiny? It appears that if a Minister had opted to leak this document, there would have been a role for SIPO to at least examine it. As the Tánaiste was Taoiseach at the time, the majority view was that it could not look into it. That raises fundamental questions about the powers of SIPO and its ability or lack thereof to hold politicians to account. It is not the first time that those questions have been raised.

As the Tánaiste knows, the Social Democrats have long called on the Government to give the State's ethics watchdog some badly needed teeth. Most recently, the controversy surrounding Deputy Troy's failure to fully declare his property and business interests in the Oireachtas register of Members' interests revealed SIPO as more lapdog than watchdog. Deputy Troy resigned as Minister of State, but this was entirely discretionary. SIPO was unable to impose any sanctions on him for repeated breaches of ethics legislation because there are no penalties for failing to accurately complete the register on time. Of course, Deputy Troy is not the only Deputy or Senator to escape penalty because of the deficiencies in the legislation which effectively muzzles our watchdog. For nearly two decades SIPO has repeatedly called on successive governments to increase its power. Those pleas have always fallen on deaf ears

My questions are as follows. Is the Tánaiste satisfied that SIPO is sufficiently empowered to investigate the decisions of taoisigh when necessary? When can we look forward to amended ethics legislation being published that significantly enhances SIPO's powers of both investigation and enforcement?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I agree that we should review and strengthen the powers of SIPO with regard to its remit when it comes to standards and ethics. I am totally in favour of that and that work is being done at the moment led by the Minister, Deputy Michael McGrath. I anticipate that we will see legislation next year to enhance and strengthen the role of the standards commission, which is something I strongly support. I was part of the Government that banned corporate donations, taking business money out of politics. I was part of the Government that brought in the Regulation of Lobbying Act. I was part of the Government that strengthened the freedom of information legislation. I am very much in favour of strengthening legislation on standards in public office.

I wish to be very clear. In 2019, I disclosed a Government document - it was not a contract - to somebody using an informal channel. I should not have done that. I have apologised for that. However, I did so under the authority of the Taoiseach, entirely within the law and in the public interest. I committed no crime and I did not breach the ethics Acts, the standards Acts or any code of conduct. Three bodies investigated this for two years and they more or less came to the same conclusion. It is ungenerous of the Deputy not to acknowledge that. I think it is quite petty.

There is a question I would ask of the Deputy. She was very active on radio - I think it was the "This Week" programme - and I remember it very well. She said that just because I was under investigation at the time - I am not under investigation by anyone anymore, by the way - she did not think I was fit to be elected Taoiseach or to serve in Cabinet. That is fine; that is her view. She is entitled to that view. Does that view extend to Sinn Féin? If any Sinn Féin politician is under investigation by a public body when the next election comes, will the Deputy apply the same standard to them? Will she say the Social Democrats will not allow such a person to serve in Cabinet or does she have a different standard for them than she has for us?

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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I am speaking about Fine Gael and its role here.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I know; that is my point.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Let us keep the focus there.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Those standards are fine when they come from the left.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Let us keep the focus there.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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That is absolutely my point. I thank the Deputy.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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I asked the Tánaiste a question. Is he satisfied that SIPO is sufficiently empowered to investigate the decisions of taoisigh when necessary? I would appreciate an answer to that. I also asked when we are likely to see the publication of updated ethics legislation. I remind the Tánaiste that this legislation goes back many years. We have been promised this updated legislation for a long time. There was a draft Bill in 2015, which went into committee in 2017 and ran into the sand. Since then, it has been clear that Fine Gael is simply not interested in having updated ethics legislation. It seems there is no appetite within Fine Gael to bring us up to date with our ethics legislation. I ask the Tánaiste to answer the questions I have asked him. Does he think the powers of SIPO in respect of the actions of taoisigh are adequate at the moment? When will we see the legislation to update the powers of SIPO which it has sought for the past 20 years?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I expect we will see that legislation next year. I agree that we need to strengthen the powers and functions of the standards commission. When it comes to ethics, standards and codes of conduct, I do not believe it is the role of any standards commission to investigate the political decisions or actions of Ministers. That is a different thing. Ministers are responsible to the Dáil for political decisions they make. When it comes to standards, ethics and codes of conduct, I absolutely believe that the standards commission should be strengthened in that regard.

I am disappointed the Deputy did not answer my question because it does belie what I suspected.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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I am quite disappointed the Tánaiste did not answer mine.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Social Democrats is a party of the left. It has lower standards for people who are on the left. The Deputy said on radio that I should not serve in government just because I was under investigation even though I have subsequently been cleared.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Why are you trying to distract attention from yourself, Tánaiste?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Why will the Social Democrats not apply the same standards for Sinn Féin? When the Deputy is doing future interviews, I hope journalists this will press her on this matter.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Why are you doing this?

Photo of Brendan GriffinBrendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Answer the question.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Why are you trying to distract attention from yourself, Tánaiste?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is because you are a hypocrite, Róisín. You are a hypocrite, that is why.

12:20 pm

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Okay. Maybe you would like to say that outside of this House, Tánaiste.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tá mé ag bogadh ar aghaidh.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Do not go there.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Will you say that? Will you make that comment outside of this House?

Photo of Brendan GriffinBrendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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The sue pandemic is spreading.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Just like Sinn Féin, you sue your opponents now.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tá mé ag dul ar aghaidh go dtí an chéad cheist eile.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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That is the latest thing.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Yes, that is the latest thing.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Look, Tánaiste, I know what you are up to. You are trying to distract attention from yourself-----

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Deputy, I am moving on.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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-----so do not be playing those games with us.

Photo of Brendan GriffinBrendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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You did not answer the question.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Let us move on.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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No. That is exactly what you want to do.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I call Deputy Barry, who is not to be interrupted.

Photo of Brendan GriffinBrendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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You have not answered the question. He asked you a fair question.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is a fair question.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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I am not going to be drawn into those silly games.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Of course not, because-----

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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If you want to play those games with Sinn Féin, you are very welcome to do that but we are not going to participate.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Members, can we have co-operation please?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is double standards. It is okay to be dodgy if you are on the left.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tánaiste, can we have co-operation please?

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Will you say that outside as well?

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I have called Deputy Barry.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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You are very brave when you have the protection of this House.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We are moving on to Deputy Barry, who is to be uninterrupted.

Photo of Mick BarryMick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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The tech industry epitomised cool capitalism's 21st century messaging: “Hi, come on in. Have a job. Pick a desk. Unions? No need for unions here. No need for workers’ organisation. Yes, we are a company, but we are more like a family, so welcome to the family”. Behind hype, there is always a reality. Some of the realities behind this industry’s ruthless billionaire owners’ hype have, unfortunately for the workers concerned, become increasingly clear in recent weeks. In this country, it seems that 350 jobs are to be lost at Meta, 250 jobs are to be lost at Twitter, 80 jobs are to be lost at Stripe and maybe 30 more are to be lost at Zendesk. A total of 700 jobs have been axed or are to be axed and the number is rising. Of course, tens of thousands of jobs are to be massacred in the name of profit internationally. At Twitter, workers were locked out of their jobs and received notice of sacking by e-mail. Despite the fact that unionised Debenhams workers were also sacked by e-mail, one national newspaper commented, I think correctly, that, "The manner in which people are being told of their redundancy has turned a harsh light on the tech industry's union-free labour practices".

I want to offer my sympathy and my solidarity to tech workers who have received blows in recent weeks. Tech workers now need to challenge the industry’s union-free practices. Tech workers need to organise. Any tech worker who wants to discuss organising is free to contact my office and I will offer whatever help and advice that I can. The union-free practices of the tech industry and the billionaires who own it have been greatly facilitated by this Government and its predecessor, and perhaps by no other Minister to the same degree as the Tánaiste. He is the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, but despite the fact that in nearly all European countries there is legislation in place that came about as a result of pressure from below which provides for mandatory trade union recognition, there is no such legislation in place here. The Tánaiste says that legislative changes are on the way, but will they amount to full mandatory trade union recognition? Given the events of recent weeks, will the Tánaiste accept that Governments have facilitated these union-free practices and the poor treatment of workers seen in this country in recent weeks and that now is the time for far-reaching change and for mandatory trade union recognition?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I want to say at the outset that my main concern and that of the Government is for the staff and family members of the staff who are affected by the recent announcement of job losses in the tech sector. It is something that I have been working on with my colleagues very extensively in the last couple of days, as I am sure the Deputy can appreciate. I can give those staff the reassurance that their legal rights will be protected, there will be 30 days of information and consultation, they will receive statutory redundancy payments and, in almost all cases, they will receive enhanced redundancy packages and exit packages. I also want to reassure them that the Government will help them out as best we can, for example with jobsearch to find new opportunities.

It is good to hear today that Microsoft, for example, is still hiring. It was good to hear yesterday Virtuous Technologies is creating additional jobs in Dublin 8. This sector is still hiring, even if some companies in the sector are letting people go. We are there to help anybody who wants to set up their own business, wants to return to education or training or needs to know what their welfare rights are. I want to give that assurance particularly to all those staff who are getting bad news this week.

There will be further layoffs in other companies in the coming weeks. We are not aware of the details of that, but it is likely to happen down the line. It is important to acknowledge it is the case that, generally speaking, people who are members of trade unions have better pay, terms and conditions than those who are not. However, the tech sector, which is largely not unionised, has better pay, terms and conditions again. These are some of the highest-paid sectors, some of the best-paid jobs and some of the best benefits. In one company, four months of paid paternity leave are provided, which is a positive thing. It is important to put on the record that these are good companies and good employers. They pay well. They have terms and conditions that are much better than would be the case in the average employer. This is one of the good reasons we welcome their investment in this country and we want it to continue.

In relation to legislation for collective bargaining, as the Deputy knows I published a report on that matter in the last few weeks. It derives from an EU directive on minimum wages and the need to increase collective bargaining coverage in the State. That report has been published and we anticipate being in a position to respond to it and to publish legislation next year.

Photo of Mick BarryMick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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The Tánaiste pointed out that workers in trade unions enjoy better pay, terms and conditions. He argued that the tech sector is non-union and goes higher again. Of course, one of the reasons it goes higher again is precisely to keep out trade unions. The Tánaiste gave various reassurances to tech workers, but he did not give them the reassurance that I asked for. Although we will have legislation next year, as the Tánaiste said, I asked for legislation that provides for mandatory trade union recognition.

Of course, the actions of the tech bosses raise the question of whether this industry should be run by billionaires in the interest of profit in the first place, or by society in the hands of society. It also raises the question of the cosy relationship between right-wing government and those companies. To that end, I have a supplementary question. Press reports this summer told us that European Court of Justice hearings were expected by Department officials to take place this autumn, paving the way for a final ruling next year on the Apple tax case. Incredibly, the Government is still objecting to the State being awarded nearly €14 billion in taxes owed to it. Can the Tánaiste update the House on the position now with regard to the timing of those European Court of Justice hearings?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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That is a valid question. I do not have an update on the timing in relation to those cases. That matter is handled by the Minister of Finance rather than me as Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Let us state the facts here. The European Court of Justice decided against the European Commission. The European Commission, or at least one directorate of the European Commission, alleged that 20 years ago, long before either of us were involved in the Dáil, the Irish Government at the time had a special tax arrangement for one particular company. The reason we contested that case was because it was not true. It was not true and truth does matter. The European Court of Justice heard the arguments and ruled in favour of Ireland. Yes, we have a low-tax regime and low taxes on company profits. We encourage research and development. That is absolutely the case. The allegation, which was a false one, was that we had a special arrangement with one company. The court decided in our favour and now it is on appeal.

Photo of Joan CollinsJoan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
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I am on the board of the Canal Communities Local Drug and Alcohol Task Force. At our last meeting, one of the project co-ordinators raised a serious issue that will impact on Turas Training, the project on which he is a co-ordinator. It is based on Old Naas Road in Dublin 12. Turas Training was founded in 2000 is funded by the HSE under section 39 and by the Department of Social Protection. It is a registered charity that rents a 3,500 sq. ft premises and delivers a comprehensive day programme for people in recovery from addiction.

Given that the lease renewal was due, he had written to the landlord advising that the Department of Health was making funding available to assist voluntary organisations like his with utility bills in light of increases in the cost of living, including energy prices, but that the HSE had said that it had not been provided with any detail of Government support.

The reply he received from the landlord was shocking. According to the landlord, when the lease was previously renewed, electricity usage was estimated to be approximately €6,000 per annum, which was factored into the rent and based on an expected usage of 36,000 kW during the year at 16.5 cent per kWh. Over the preceding 18 months, with the one-year fixed-rate exceeding 60 cent per kWh, it would have been difficult to estimate what the average cost would be over the next 12 months, given the volatility of the market. Notwithstanding the above, the landlord stated that the current rate was 54 cent per kWh, which would equate to €19,500 based on the unit's estimated usage, which the landlord felt was a reasonable guesstimate of the levels to be expected.

Electricity has increased from 16.5 cent per kWh to 54 cent per kWh and from €6,000 to €19,500 per annum The €6,000 was paid for from core funding. If that core funding does not increase to meet the estimated increase of €13,000 to €14,000, the service will be in significant trouble. There is no fat in the service's funding to cope with this and it cannot be met by cutting programme or training costs or anything else, as its audited accounts show. It has upgraded the heaters and lights in the building to reduce power usage. Without additional funding, though, the service has no way of meeting the increased cost of high energy prices.

This service is just one example of the projects facing the energy and cost-of-living crises. The situation will impact on many other projects and voluntary organisations. The service is not a business. A number of Deputies have raised the plight of businesses, including hauliers, nursing homes, etc., but these projects are unique and working off fixed budgets to support the most vulnerable in our society. What finance has the Government put in place to support these section 39 projects and voluntary organisations with the massive increase in their energy bills?

12:30 pm

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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As the Deputy will be aware, the Finance Bill is going through the Houses. It will create the temporary business energy support scheme, TBESS, which will help businesses with the increased cost of electricity and gas. However, she is correct to point out that the scheme will only apply to businesses. It is run by the Revenue Commissioners and operates in the form of a tax credit. We acknowledge that we will have to help out non-businesses with the high cost of energy. These include sporting organisations in some cases and community centres in others. They may also include addiction services, such as those the Deputy mentioned. We set aside a fund for that in the budget. I am not sure if the question of how that will be deployed has been fully worked out yet, but we accept that we will need to help out those bodies with their high energy costs because if we do not, they will not be able to provide the vital services that they do.

The Minister of State with responsibility for drug and addiction services, Deputy Feighan, is just behind me. He would be happy to follow the matter up with the Deputy directly to see if we can assist in any way.

Photo of Joan CollinsJoan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
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That is exactly the point; these services are not businesses, but voluntary organisations, and they are dealing with some of the most vulnerable people in our society. They cannot afford to fail and the Government cannot allow them to.

No organisation whose core funding comes from the HSE can afford an increase of €13,000 to €14,000 in energy costs. It is not practical. There must be full cost recovery for section 39 projects. I hope the Government will ensure that happens. There is no fat in these organisations and the Tánaiste knows that they have been cut to the bone over the past ten years. They are running on air and, therefore, it is important that a commitment be given to all projects. Many projects around the country will be in crisis if they do not get a commitment from the Government that the full cost will be met.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am not entirely sure what the Deputy means by "cut to the bone". I am sure that, if I check into it, I will find that funding for those services has been increased year-on-year and will increase again next year.

Leaving that aside, I agree with her fundamental point that energy prices are rising for everyone - households, businesses and voluntary bodies. We have acted to help households with rising energy costs. We are acting at the moment to help businesses with rising energy costs, and that new scheme should be available to them in the next few weeks. We also have to act to assist voluntary and community bodies and some sporting bodies with higher energy costs. We will do that.

Photo of Joan CollinsJoan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
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These projects need full cost recovery.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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On a point of order, I am of the view that the personalised derogatory comments that the Tánaiste made about me earlier impugned my character, integrity and good name. I am seeking the protection of the Chair and for the Tánaiste to withdraw those comments.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The word "hypocrite" was used and the Deputy was named. I ask the Tánaiste to withdraw his comments.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I would be happy to withdraw them because I do not particularly want to have a row with the Deputy over this, but I would like to note two points. She did not answer my question-----

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste is not entitled to that.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----as to whether she applied a different standard to Sinn Féin.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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That is a half-baked withdrawal.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Deputies, please.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I also feel that Deputy Shortall impugned my character. I would like to put that on the record.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps the Leas-Cheann Comhairle will rule on that, too. Second, I did note that, a little like the Leader of the Opposition, you challenge her and she threatens to sue you.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is ridiculous.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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That was very gracious.

Photo of Mick BarryMick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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Grace under pressure.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Could we do this without interruption? I really do not want to stand up.

Tánaiste, there is one issue here in relation to alleging or calling the Deputy a "hypocrite". I did not want to go into the Salient Rulings of the Chair, but I have them here. You are precluded from calling her that. I am simply asking you to withdraw it. The relevant ruling specifically is Salient Ruling No. 428. The word "hypocrite" amongst others is not acceptable. Will you withdraw that, please?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I will withdraw it and replace it with the term "double standards".

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Simply, what I am asking the Tánaiste to do is to withdraw the word "hypocrite".

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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He has done it twice now.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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With respect, I have done it twice. "Purveyor of double standards".