Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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12. To ask the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport his plans to implement a public transport security strategy; if he plans to include An Garda Síochána in such a strategy; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [55761/22]

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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The issue of safety on our public transport system has arisen often lately. Has the Minister plans to implement a new public transport security strategy and will he include An Garda Síochána in any discussion on such a strategy? My view, which I will outline when I speak again, is that there has been an unhelpful stoking of the issue by some in politics, but the matter can be resolved through increased regular staffing and better co-ordination with An Garda Síochána.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I agree that the safety and security of public transport passengers and staff are critical matters that first and foremost must be managed by every transport company, working with An Garda Síochána, where appropriate. There are currently no plans to develop an overarching public transport security strategy. My Department and the National Transport Authority engage regularly with the public transport operators on the issue of security and ensuring the safety of passengers and staff. The NTA has established a working group on antisocial behaviour, which meets monthly to discuss any developing trends and share best practices.

Further, each of the operators has its own safety and security policies in place to deal with issues such as antisocial behaviour and they have introduced a number of initiatives in recent years to help combat the issue. These include increased investment in CCTV, text alert systems and joint initiatives with An Garda Síochána such as Operation Twin Tracks. There has been a 50% increase in spending on rail security in the past five years, from €3.7 million in 2016 to €5.7 million last year. Additionally, as part of my Department's sustainable mobility plan, the NTA has committed to develop and publish an annual public transport passenger safety and personal security report, and to implement measures where appropriate.

It should also be noted that the NTA meets regularly with An Garda Síochána and operator security managers to improve the security measures across all public transport services. The combined interventions implemented to date across all public transport services have substantially helped to tackle antisocial behaviour. This issue will, however, require ongoing monitoring. As such, I am committed to working collectively with all stakeholders to ensure the safest possible travel environment for members of the public and the safest possible working environment for the employees who provide our valuable public transport services.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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Some of the measures outlined by the Minister, such as CCTV and text alerts, are all well and good but what we need is increased staffing in the public transport operators. Over the years, we have made a virtue of having staffless rail stations. This has been a problem. If we had the traditional stationmasters as well as workers present on platforms, who have authority by virtue of being public transport workers, it would go a long way towards increasing security so people can feel safe on our public transport system. We used to have inspectors on Dublin Bus. We need to go back to a system where we have inspectors. They are not there to throw their weight around but to provide passive security and passive surveillance. If we do that, along with measures such as CCTV and so on, which are already in place, it would help. That is where we need to go with regard to security.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I will go back to Deputy Smith's first comment that a lot of people are proposing a separate transport police. It is important that we address whether that is key, one way or the other. I recently visited a new control centre being built by Iarnród Éireann. It is an amazing facility behind Heuston Station. There we are seeing co-location of An Garda Síochána services with the Irish Rail management system. That this points in the right direction. We should have a continuing close connection between Irish Rail and An Garda Síochána. That co-location will further improve and develop that.

I had a meeting yesterday with our rail safety commissioner whose job it is to assess safety and review any accidents in the rail service. I asked him his view on whether we would be better off with a separate service. He firmly said "No". He felt that, as the Deputy said, the better operation of the existing systems would give a better return.

Last year, the NTA produced a significant report, Travelling in a Woman's Shoes, which addressed the issue of a wider sense of safety. The report stated, as the Deputy also said, that it is often design, presence, lighting and other basic safety features which are very important. It is not just about policing. It can be about presence, the local environment around public transport stations and so on. Following the recommendations of that report is a key and integral part of making the system safer for everyone.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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The Minister and I are on the same page. I do not agree with having a separate transport police or the private outsourcing of security. I do not like the level of security on the Luas because it adds to the degree to which people feel unsafe. Rather than increasing security measures on public transport, I would rather see traditional staffing levels improved across our public transport system in line with a stronger, more rigorous and more visible Garda presence, where and how appropriate. I ask that we get to back to first principles in the context of staffing and having a presence on the platforms and also, where we have difficulties in peak hours on certain services, that there is a Garda strategy in place that people can understand and people can see. We will not have gardaí on every bus, and nobody is saying that. We need to move towards having a system where we can have traditional transport workers who are visible to the public and making them feel safe. That should be the first measure in improving the security and safety on our public transport system.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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We are at risk here of spending a lot of time on whataboutery. We talk to different people and they give us different perspectives, while the situation for passengers and workers on public transport continues to deteriorate. We do not have much rail in my county but we have a lot of buses. Navan services in particular have been pointed out by the National Bus and Rail Union, NBRU, as having real challenges. Rather than backbench and Opposition Deputies talking around the houses on this matter, the Government needs to come up with a strategy and a plan. Sinn Féin has put forward proposals, not for a separate transport police but for a unit within An Garda Síochána. If that is not the right solution, I ask the Minister to find the right solution to make public transport safe for people to use and work in.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I disagree with Deputy Smith on one point. I agree that we do not need a separate policing service but from my long experience on the Luas, I believe that company's system, which is often about fare evasion as much as is policing, provides a welcome and secure presence. Those workers and that company do a good job in that regard. I do not believe gardaí will check for fares and so on.

I agree with Deputy O'Rourke that it is an issue also for bus services and in particular spots or areas. As we all know, there are times, especially late at night, when people can feel very insecure. I agree that this requires further action and real attention. It is vital that people feel safe. The report, Travelling in a Woman's Shoes, points to the safety aspect, which applies to all of us - men, women, children and older people. Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus are taking real action on that. They recognise the issue for the safety and security of their drivers as well as for passengers. This will require further fitting of CCTV cameras. It is also critical that they have an ability to use radio and other systems.