Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I am raising this matter because too many people are falling through the cracks apparent in the national retrofit scheme. In short, it is not working for the people who need it the most and therein lies the problem. I and many colleagues in the House see the homes that need to be made warmer and more energy efficient are being refused the assistance needed because of the nature of the house, the manner in which it was built or certain features that make it ineligible. Ability to pay is another aspect of this but I will leave that until later on.

This issue relates to stone-built structures. There are many such homes, houses and cottages throughout rural Ireland. They were generally built prior to the 1950s and many long before then. They are not that uncommon, yet judging by the response these households have had to their inquiries about retrofits, one would think they were a rare occurrence that never entered the minds of those who developed the scheme. They are generally so old because they were built to last. They were also built to adapt to the heating methods of the time, that is, open fire and back boiler heating. Such homes are usually lived in by elderly people, some parents or grandparents, who have stayed in the family home all their lives. They have been refused the help they need. A householder in my constituency was refused on the basis the works that can be carried out would not get their building up to the regulation required, so they are left at that. They are essentially excluded.

These homes can have very thick walls. I grant that presents its own set of challenges but why was this not planned for when rolling out the scheme? When I raised this via a parliamentary question, I was told these structures were characterised as "traditionally built" buildings and that due to the nature of the mortar used, and issues of vapour trapping and so on, they are more complicated to insulate. That is fair enough but why was this not taken into account when the scheme was being prepared?

If these people are to wait until the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage prepares a new technical guidance document, which is what I have been told, then they are to be put at the back of a very long queue. The scheme has not been well-prepared. It is discriminating against those with meagre means, and sidelines those who do not have the means for a full refit. That is the truth of it. These households typically heat their homes with turf and timber and are now being told that they cannot do that. The Government devised a scheme suited to those with the greatest means and not those in greatest need. Homeowners such as those I mentioned, as well as people living in energy poverty and in greatest need of help, are being left behind by the scheme. What is the Government doing to ensure these households will be attended to when the report is finished and that they will not be left at the back of the queue?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I thank the Deputy for raising the issue and for giving me the opportunity to give him an update on the Government's supports for home retrofit. In order to hit our targets we need to retrofit the equivalent of 500,000 homes to a building energy rating, BER, of B2 and install 400,000 heat pumps in existing homes to replace older, less efficient heating systems by the end of 2030. This represents about 30% of our housing stock and is among the most ambitious retrofit programmes worldwide.

The national retrofit plan was published last November as part of the climate action plan and it sets out how the Government will deliver these targets. The plan is designed to address barriers to retrofit across four key pillars: driving demand and activity; financing and funding; supply chain, skills and standards; and governance. Recognising that the achievement of our climate action plan targets will require a step-change in the pace and scale of delivery of Ireland's residential retrofit programme, earlier this year the Government approved a package of supports to make it easier and more affordable for homeowners to undertake home energy upgrades, for warmer, healthier and more comfortable homes with lower energy bills. These initiatives have resulted in a significant increase in demand and delivery under Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, schemes.

Older, stone-built homes, by which I mean those generally built until around the 1940s, usually fall into the category of "traditionally built" buildings. Traditionally built homes and buildings are considerably more complex to retrofit. The term "traditionally built" generally refers to those buildings built with solid walls, which often have a lime- or earthen-based render finish. This was the dominant form of building construction in Ireland until the second quarter of the 20th century and includes stone-built dwellings. The primary difference between traditional and modern construction is the way that moisture is managed. Traditional materials and construction techniques allowed for the natural transfer of heat and moisture. Solid masonry walls therefore relied on their thickness to cope with atmospheric moisture by being sufficiently thick that drying out took place before external moisture reached the inside of the building. This means standard retrofit solutions are often not suitable for use with traditional buildings as they can lead to adverse and unintended consequences for the building fabric and the health or well-being of the occupants. Energy-efficiency upgrade solutions appropriate to such materials and methods are needed in these cases. As an example, a stone wall with lime-based mortar will need a lime-based plaster render to remain vapour permeable.

A significant proportion of homes and buildings that will need to be retrofitted fall into this category of "traditionally built". While these homes can be eligible for SEAI support subject to the scheme eligibility criteria and terms and conditions being met, uncertainty about what retrofit treatments are allowable or appropriate has contributed to a limited amount of whole-house energy-efficiency upgrades on these buildings. For example, a householder could get a house's attic insulated but not the walls, if the SEAI terms and conditions cannot be met. Government fully agrees it is essential that we have both the standards and supports in place for the retrofitting of all types of housing to ensure that the principles of universality and fairness underpinning the retrofit plan are met.

As set out in the plan, a new guidance document focused on energy efficiency in traditional buildings is being developed to support the proper upgrading of such buildings. This guidance document draws on expert multidisciplinary advice and expertise and will also include case studies. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is taking the lead on this project, which will also involve experts from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and the SEAI. The guidance will show that for many traditional buildings, a BER of B2 or above can often be achieved in a way appropriate to the building. It is hoped the guidance can be completed by the end of the year. Once available it is intended the guidance will form the standard underpinning any SEAI supports for the renovation work of traditional buildings. Any relevant, available SEAI retrofit grants or supports will align with the best practice guidance when it is published.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit. I appreciate the figures the Minister of State just rolled out to me. That is what we get every time we have a Topical Issue debate. I appreciate the Government wants 500,000 homes with a BER of B2 but I am talking about the homes that are generally the ones losing the most heat. They are likely to be occupied by the elderly in our communities who need the retrofitting more than the owners of a mansion down the road who, because they can afford €50,000, can then get another €50,000 from the Government. I am talking about the homes that are being left behind. Sometimes I think the way these schemes are put together has more to do with the need for the Government to look as if it is doing something rather than the plight of people living in these inefficient homes. That is not what this scheme, or any other, should be based on.

The Government often speaks of the importance of our built heritage but that built heritage needs specific measures. The Minister of State mentioned stone walls with lime-based mortar will need a lime-based plaster render - so be it. If that is what it takes then that is what should be done to ensure these homes are brought up a level of efficiency where they are not losing heat. Will the Minster of State review the scheme that has been rolled out and devise a way to implement it such that the scale of work that can be done is not determined by a person's ability to pay but the level of need? As I said, the level of need is high as most of these buildings are cottages in rural areas occupied by elderly people. They have lived all their lives there and these homes are being left behind by this scheme. I therefore ask the Minister of State to revise it.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I will take the Deputy's comments to the Minister and discuss this with him. I take the Deputy's point there is a real problem for these stone houses. As he says, they are likely to be lived in by people who could be in energy poverty, people who are older, people in remote locations in rural areas and so on, and this needs to be addressed. That is why the guidelines are being worked out.

As the Deputy acknowledged, these houses are different and they need different treatment. We need guidance for the people who are carrying out the retrofit work. We had experience a decade ago of retrofit work being done by people without sufficient guidance. They tried to put in the insulation or do the work and we ended up with buildings that did not improve in energy rating.

In this case we have a specific problem about moisture and the risk of it being locked in and houses being damp, and so on. One can insulate very heavily and end up in a situation where one is trapping moisture within a house. That work on the guidance must be done and it is expected it will be complete by the end of the year. I will mention it to the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. I accept where the Deputy is coming from on this, though I want him to accept the Government's plan for retrofit allocates the majority of the funding for retrofit of housing to initiatives with zero cost to the homeowner and targeted specifically at people either living in local authority housing or on welfare payments.

The majority of the more than €350 million funding for this year and the more than €500 million for next year will be targeted at people receiving 100% grants. This is an energy poverty measure and it needs to be targeted. One of the primary duties of the Government is to keep people warm in their homes in the winter, particularly those who are having difficulty paying for heating.