Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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8. To ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality her views on whether the punishment must match the crime; if she is considering introducing legislation to increase the maximum sentence for any crime; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [51443/22]

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I will be interested to hear from the Minister what reporting on sentencing policy is provided to the Judiciary, the Minister and the wider public and her intentions in relation to changes in sentencing policy in particular areas.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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There is work that needs to be done on reporting policy. There is currently a strong focus on the modernisation programme in the Courts Service and one of the biggest challenges in moving to a more digital courts system is the fact the information we have is difficult to collate, is not collected in the same way everywhere and is not necessarily reported on in the same way. Investment and the work of the Courts Service will provide us with a much better system, whereby sentencing, the number and type of cases and any information we need is present in a more structured and formatted way than we currently have. We do not have an appropriate system when it comes to types of cases, types of sentencing and various pieces of information coming into the courts. That is being worked on and a significant investment has been provided in the two most recent budgets.

More generally, in relation to sentencing, what a judge decides in a courtroom is up to the judge but it is the role of us in the Dáil and Seanad to make sure we have appropriate legislation in place. A review of minimum sentencing is under way. There are two or three areas, specifically around drug-related offences, where we have minimum tariffs but, for the most part, we are looking at areas where we have maximum sentences. There are a number of changes afoot, which I mentioned earlier. One involves increasing the maximum sentence for assault causing harm, which is currently five years. I believe it should be higher, specifically in the many domestic violence cases where a person pleads guilty and for a variety of reasons or because the victim has recovered, the sentence can be reduced to two years or even less. That is not appropriate and we are increasing the maximum sentence to ten years.

Conspiracy to murder is another area where we are increasing the sentence. A person may fail in an attempt to kill somebody but the intent is no less there. We are increasing the maximum sentence in such cases to life in prison. We are making sure in the cases of non-fatal strangulation and stalking, which are being made stand-alone offences, that it is clear that these are significant offences. There will be increases in maximum penalties.

Hate crime legislation is being introduced. Where we do not have an aggravating factor or a specific hate crime, this will reflect the severity of this type of crime and we will see an increase in sentencing overall.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I welcome those changes. Among the most damaging impacts on people are the root of hate crime and the sorts of things that happen through social media, on which we are probably not up to speed.

On a more general point, in policy spheres that I know quite a bit about, sunlight is the best disinfectant. It is disappointing to hear that we are not getting accountability for the consistency of sentencing we need. I urge the Minister to get to grips with that. There is a separation of powers and judges have to be treated independently, but reporting on what happens in our courts is an entitlement of the public. We cannot make proper decisions about minimum and maximum sentencing if we do not have access to such information. If that work could be accelerated, it would be a real step forward.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It is important that we have information on anything we do. Any policy decisions we make have to be backed up by facts. That applies in any Department or role.

The focus of the modernisation programme is to ensure we have a more efficient system that people can use online, rather than the paper-based system on which the justice sector is still reliant, and one that it allows us to gather the data and information we need to develop policies.

The Judicial Council is working on sentencing guidelines, which will be very helpful in setting out a clear pathway specific to various types of cases, working in line with the legislation I have just mentioned and the various changes we may or may not make. We have seen how judicial guidelines on insurance costs have started to have a significant impact and how important it is to have that information and those data and to understand the impact of those data on the cost of insurance and how that impacts on community groups and others. We have been able, in certain instances, to use data to effect positive change. That is what I hope to do once the modernisation programme is complete.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I welcome that. It is wrong to try to make decisions on appropriate sentencing entirely in the dark in relation to what is happening already in the courts. It is important that we inject urgency into achieving consistency by judges and in the guidelines issued to them, as well as the report back on that. Until we have made the transition from paper to digital, we should introduce an interim measure to get greater access to that information in the intervening period.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I am cautious about how to word this supplementary question but it will be carefully worded.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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As long as it is relevant to the question.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is relevant. In the fight against crime and injustice, I ask that an investigation be carried out into whether moneys from the justice Vote might be being used by others in instances in the family law courts in a way that could be counter to the principles of natural justice and due process.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Deputy, you are-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I know what the guy said.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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No, not what the guy said. I ask the Deputy to resume his seat. That has no relevance to the question. I gave him discretion in his previous contribution as well. Contributions have to be relevant to the question.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is relevant to the justice Vote.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It may well be relevant to justice, but it is not relevant to the written question before us. I will leave it at that. I ask the Minister to conclude.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister might reply.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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No, the Minister is to conclude on the written question.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I probably should have stressed that, while we are working on the modernisation programme and while we need to have a more effective way to gather data in the courts, information and data are available. For example, with regard to the increase in the maximum sentence for assault causing harm from five to ten years has come about through reflecting on other sentencing, working with the DPP and getting information through other sources. There is information available that is helping to feed into policy where changes are needed. On the whole, the modernisation of the justice sector, including my Department, the Garda, the Courts Service and the Prison Service, is very important and will be a valuable tool in ensuring the information we have is at our fingertips and readily available.

I mentioned the report in which Brigid McManus looks at the number and type of judges we have, and there is the OECD work. Work like that will not be delayed in the way it has been once we have those structures in place. It is not to say there is no information or work being done gathering that but it is one part of the puzzle and will tie many bits together.