Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
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I am disappointed that no Minister or Minister of State from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is present. This is an important issue that has been going on for a long time. Bogus self-employment is an area in which I have a great deal of interest, and I was part of the social welfare committee's report into the matter. We now know that there is more bogus self-employment than we originally thought.

RTÉ commissioned Eversheds Sutherland to conduct an independent review to determine whether workers' employment status had been misclassified. This was startling at the time, given that it was the then Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection that should have investigated RTÉ, not an independent company. The Department of Social Protection started its investigation in 2020, two years after the Eversheds Sutherland investigation started. The Department is looking into 500 cases and the review is ongoing.

Yesterday, I received a number of emails from workers in RTÉ who were concerned about what was happening. I will go through one email to give the House some flavour. Its writer contacted me as part of a group of workers in RTÉ who were experiencing serious difficulties with their contracts and employment status. They are part of an ongoing bogus self-employment investigation being carried out by the Department, which follows the recent Eversheds Sutherland process. As part of the latter process, it has been determined that many of these workers were placed on incorrect contracts for many years, in some cases decades. As a result, they have missed out on multiple employment benefits enjoyed by colleagues who are fortunate enough to be employed correctly. Some of these benefits include, but are not limited to, holiday pay, sick pay, maternity leave and pensions.

Through the Eversheds Sutherland process, RTÉ has accepted these workers' start dates as being much earlier than their first employment contracts in 2019. However, while RTÉ is willing to accept the earlier employment start dates, the settlement offer that it has put forward in recognition of the workers being misclassified does not adequately reflect their lost entitlements or come close to being fair compensation. They are particularly concerned that their pension benefits have not been addressed, leaving many of them in the position of having worked for RTÉ for most of their working lives but without the staff pensions enjoyed by their peers. The National Union of Journalists, NUJ, has advised them that RTÉ will not enter into discussions on pension contributions because it would be unaffordable for the organisation. This comes at a time when RTÉ has been given extra money by the Government. It seems to these workers that RTÉ has acknowledged there was wrongdoing but does not want to admit liability. They are asking whether this is acceptable.

Yesterday, workers met SIPTU and the group of unions negotiating on their behalf. SIPTU's feedback was that RTÉ was not willing to move the acceptance date, given that it was asking the workers to vote tomorrow on accepting these conditions. It is bad form for an organisation like RTÉ to treat workers in this way. Workers should not be forced to vote tomorrow on something that is unclear, because if they vote on it, they will have to accept the outcome. Many will probably not vote at all because they do not want to be tied into an agreement to which they did not agree and that has not been finished as far as they are concerned. I wish to raise this issue today, given that tomorrow is the voting day.

Frank Feighan (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. Employment status has implications for PRSI contributions and associated social welfare benefits, tax treatment and employment rights. Many statutory employment rights are only available to employees as opposed to those who are self-employed.

There are three statutory bodies in place that make determinations on the employment status of a person for the purpose of PRSI, tax and employment rights, the first of which is the scope section in the Department of Social Protection, which determines employment status with a view to deciding the appropriate class of PRSI for an individual. The second body that may make determinations of employment status is the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, where employment status determines tax treatment. The third body is the adjudication service of the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, which determines employment status as a preliminary issue when adjudicating on employment rights complaints. The WRC is an independent statutory body under the aegis of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Information on its complaints process may be accessed at www.workplacerelations.ie/en/complaints_disputes/refer_a_dispute_make_a_complaint/. The WRC also provides a telephone information service, which service is manned by experienced WRC information officers.

The issue of misclassification of employment status is a complex matter and decisions of the Department of Social Protection's scope section, the WRC or Revenue are not binding on one another. Appeals from the scope section are referred to the Social Welfare Appeals Office, appeals from Revenue are referred to the Tax Appeals Commission and appeals from the WRC are referred to the Labour Court.

I understand that RTÉ has engaged in an internal process of review carried out by Eversheds Sutherland and that the scope section is investigating the matter.

The Government takes the issue of false self-employment seriously. In this regard, the determination of employment status working group has been established and is chaired by the Minister of State with responsibility for business, employment and retail, Deputy English. The purpose of this working group is to examine issues around employment status, consider the scale of misclassification and discuss the potential to improve systems by which correct employment status is determined. The group's first meeting took place on Wednesday, 13 April and its second took place on Tuesday, 21 June. It intends to meet again in the near future. The group consists of representatives from the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, IBEC, the Construction Federation of Ireland and Irish Small and Medium Employers, ISME, as well as officials from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social Protection.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
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I thank the Minister of State for providing a breakdown of the various statutory bodies that make determinations on the employment status of a person for the purpose of PRSI, but this situation involves workers with nearly 20 years of service who are being told that they have no pension rights, will not be allowed into the staff pension scheme and so on.

I received a message from one of the workers today, who said that there had been a meeting with SIPTU and that the feedback was that RTÉ was unwilling to move the acceptance date of tomorrow or to look at pensions, and that it was a case of take it or leave it. The workers' understanding is that RTÉ has engaged a top legal firm to deal with any case they may bring and seems willing to spend money fighting their entitlement to pensions as opposed to addressing their pension issues. SIPTU stated that it had not agreed this offer and that RTÉ had refused to engage with it on the matter, which is confusing for the workers if SIPTU has not negotiated any part of the offer.

Employment legislation in this country is weak. According to these workers, RTÉ as an employer is not negotiating with the unions involved - SIPTU, the NUJ, etc. These workers could be facing a difficult situation tomorrow and afterwards. The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment should intervene and demand that the director of RTÉ meet the Government. People depend on their pensions. These workers were working with RTÉ illegally, given that they were in bogus self-employment and there was a misclassification of their employment status.

The fact they have been deemed not to have been in bogus self-employment means RTÉ knew it should have been employing these workers directly, not through a bogus self-employment contract. Will the Minister of State, Deputy English, meet with the director of RTÉ to discuss this and give some explanation as to why these workers are not being given their pension rights?

Frank Feighan (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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As I said, I understand RTÉ has engaged in an internal review process, carried out by Eversheds Sutherland, and the scope section-----

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
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That review does not relate to these workers.

Frank Feighan (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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The Department of Social Protection is investigating this matter. I will bring the Deputy's views to the Minister of State and ask that he seek a meeting with RTÉ to try to resolve the issue. As I said, the Government takes seriously the issue of false self-employment. I hope there will be an agreement in place within the next few days. I can only bring her concerns to the Minister of State, which I will do this evening.