Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

80. To ask the Minister for Health the latest position on conducting a review of Covid-19 deaths in nursing homes; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [52402/22]

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the Government's lifetime, will it conduct a review of all Covid deaths in nursing homes during the pandemic, in particular during the first 14 to 15 months? More than 53% of all deaths took place in that environment. I would like a public inquiry into this matter.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would like to express my sympathy against to all those who lost friends, family and other loved ones during the pandemic, including the many who were residents of nursing homes.

Since the start of the pandemic, the national response has continuously evolved to take account of emerging evidence and lessons nationally and internationally. Throughout, there has been a specific focus on older people, including those in nursing homes, and ensuring that the best possible protections are in place. Significant supports were put in place for nursing homes and the situation at national and local levels has been kept under ongoing and active review. As part of the Covid response, an independent nursing homes expert panel was established early in the pandemic to examine the management of Covid-19 in nursing homes. It provided real-time lessons and recommendations to inform the ongoing response. The expert panel reported to me in August 2020 and there has been significant progress and investment in implementing its recommendations.

I have stated previously that a review of the management and impact of Covid-19 in nursing homes is warranted. However, I have also said that I am aware that a review process, if done in the wrong way, would become lengthy and legalistic.

Ultimately, what matters here is that the families get the answers to the reasonable questions they are asking. We want to avoid a situation where that does not happen because everything becomes mired in legality, which has happened with others. That sort of process will not serve anybody. To that end, I have asked my officials to come back to me with options that provide a mechanism to address the questions the families have but to do it in a way that gets them answers in a timely manner. I will say more about that presently.

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We all agree that fundamental mistakes were made during this period. What happened in the pandemic was unprecedented in Ireland and across the world. We had never seen it before in our lifetime. What the relatives want and deserve to know is what happened to their family members in their final weeks or days. I just cannot comprehend a situation in which one's mother or father is in a nursing home and there is no access for loved ones. There was panic in some instances. That situation warrants a robust inquiry or whatever the Minister wants to call it, whether a public inquiry or a review. A public inquiry is warranted in respect of the factors that led to so many deaths taking place in a nursing home environment. That is the question at hand. We can call the investigation whatever we want. I acknowledge inquiries have a bad history in this country in that they have been completely dragged out in the past. However, the relatives of those who died at least deserve some answers.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The relatives of those who died deserve the truth. Ultimately, that is what they are seeking and they have every right to it. We have to deal with the reality in this country of what happens when public inquiries are set up. What tends to happen is everyone involved goes and gets lawyers. People go straight to the High Court and get injunctions stating they cannot be questioned and have their good name damaged. One ends up with a very legalistic process. That is why we have had things like tribunals in the past. Unfortunately, many of them, as we know, have gone on for years and do not always do what the people who matter in them want, which is to provide them with the truth. They can take years and put a huge stress on people's lives.

A model we have seen that worked very well was in the case of the inquiry into CervicalCheck, which involved bringing in Dr. Scally. That was not a public inquiry but it is fair to say most of us in here thought it worked and delivered. Maybe it did not deliver everything everyone wanted but it delivered a lot and, critically, it did so quickly.

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree with the Minister that we do not want a dragged out process where, at the end of the day, it is the barristers and solicitors who are enriched. The special Oireachtas committee on this issue recommended that a public inquiry take place. That committee had a lot of respect and was thorough in its investigation of events, particularly in the first 14 months.

The other question that has to be answered concerns the composition of nursing homes in Ireland. Twenty years ago, they were 80% public but that is now reversed. The composition is unhealthy. It would seem private nursing homes were not equipped for this outbreak. The pandemic killed more than 1,000 people in the first 14 months in that environment. Systematic mistakes were made in regard to all the deaths that took place.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree with the Minister that families need the truth. Does he agree they also need accountability and closure? The fact is 23 of these thousands of deaths in Ireland happened in a nursing home the HSE took over. Exceptional issues arose in Dealgan House that drove the HSE to move in and take it over. There was a complete collapse of the system there, including healthcare and governance. There was an appeal at one stage to bring in the Army.

The Minister cannot sit there and deny that if these were children, we would have had our inquiry by now. That is a fact. It seems that because these were older people and because many of them would had dementia and were probably in the end stage of life, somehow this does not matter to the Government. It must matter. The Minister must find a way. We spent billions of euro fighting Covid, rightly and properly, but he has spent nothing on investing in finding a solution to this issue. What he is saying today is what he said to me previously on at least two other occasions. He has to take charge of this. He has to act. The families are entitled to closure, respect and truth from the Government.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The families of the 23 people who died in Dealgan House deserve an answer. The Minister said we do not want a process that is too long. It has already been too long. He spoke to the families and told them there needed to be a mechanism. It is shocking we do not have that mechanism at this point in time. We need it as quickly as possible. It is totally correct that we need to ensure learnings are taken on board, the families get the truth and there is accountability. We do not know what the future will be in respect of pandemics and future healthcare. We need to ensure this all happens as quickly as possible. Both the Minister and the Taoiseach have spoken about how public inquiries do not work and a commission of inquiry will not work. We soon need to see the system they are going to employ to provide these families with the answers they need. We need it as soon as possible and I implore the Minister to deliver it as quickly as possible.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I recognise the ongoing advocacy from the Deputies on this issue. I ask Deputy O'Dowd to reflect on a charge he has made here today. I do not think it is worthy of him. I take that charge very seriously and I ask him to-----

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If it is helpful, I am not charging the Minister personally with that at all. What I am saying is that if these were children, we would have had the inquiry because public opinion would have demanded it. However, I withdraw anything in my statement that caused any offence the Minister may have felt.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy. Like him and all of us, I take all of these lives seriously, regardless of anyone's age or anybody's background. That has nothing to do with it. I have met the families from Dealgan House and I have committed, and am happy to reiterate that commitment, to assist them in seeking answers to what happened to their loved ones. They have every right to that.

The difficulty we all face as legislators, in this one example, is we all know there are multiple ongoing court cases. A voluntary process is difficult because I imagine those who we would want to be involved will take legal advice that says, "You are in court; therefore, do not participate in anything." What, then, do we do? We potentially move to a statutory investigation. Again, this is something that can be looked at but we all just need to be clear ourselves. We know statutory inquiries often tend, as Deputy Kenny said, to enrich one group of people and not get answers for the people who matter most. I am trying to find some mechanism that delivers for the families without it taking years of their lives and potentially failing them, which a formal statutory inquiry could result in if we get it wrong.