Dáil debates

Tuesday, 18 October 2022

Ceisteanna - Questions

Cabinet Committees

4:50 pm

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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18. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland will next meet. [45437/22]

Photo of Neale RichmondNeale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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19. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Brexit will next meet. [49696/22]

Photo of Seán HaugheySeán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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20. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland will next meet. [49949/22]

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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21. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland will next meet. [49952/22]

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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22. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland will next meet. [49903/22]

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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23. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland will next meet. [51564/22]

Photo of Gary GannonGary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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24. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland will next meet. [51654/22]

Photo of Mick BarryMick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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25. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland will next meet. [51691/22]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 18 to 25 together.

The Cabinet committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland operates in accordance with established guidelines for Cabinet committees and, where appropriate, substantive issues are referred to Government for discussion and approval.

The Cabinet committee oversees implementation of relevant programme for Government commitments in the area of Brexit and Northern Ireland and ongoing relevant developments. The committee was formally established by the Government on 6 July 2020 and had its first meeting on 29 October 2020. The Cabinet committee last met on 27 June 2022. A date for the next meeting remains under review.

In addition to meetings of the Cabinet committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland, relevant matters are also discussed at meetings of the full Cabinet. Further, yesterday I travelled to Belfast for a programme of engagement with the leaders of the five main political parties in Northern Ireland in advance of the 28 October deadline for the nomination of the First and deputy First Minister and the formation of the Executive. I had separate discussions with the deputy leader of Sinn Féin, Michelle O'Neill, the leader of the DUP, Jeffrey Donaldson, the leader of the Alliance Party, Naomi Long, the leader of the UUP, Doug Beattie, and the leader of the SDLP, Colum Eastwood. I also met the community relations in schools initiative and had an invigorating, stimulating and enjoyable session with it. This group deals with building relationships at the interface, from preschool children and their parents right up to second level. The work it does was quite a revelation.

Photo of Maurice QuinlivanMaurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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The resounding message from the Taoiseach following his trip to Belfast and his meetings with the North's political leaders yesterday was that Stormont must be restored. This echoes the call made by the majority of parties in the North, including mine. The MLAs simply want to get back to work. People in the North need their Ministers around the table working together to tackle the cost-of-living crisis in a meaningful way.

As Michelle O'Neill outlined yesterday, we need to see an agreed way forward with the framework of the protocol and we need to find ways to make it work. This work can be done in parallel with restored institutions that honour the election results from earlier. The British and Irish Governments also have a responsibility to work together in prioritising the restoration of power-sharing and the political institutions of the Good Friday Agreement. What progress has been made by the Taoiseach and his officials in this regard with the British Government?

Photo of Seán HaugheySeán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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Recently in the Dáil, the Taoiseach said with regard to negotiations between the EU and UK on the implementation of the Northern Ireland protocol that the parties must now be given the space to do their work. The Minister for Foreign Affairs more or less said the same thing during Question Time earlier this month and suggested that the less said publicly on these matters in the Dáil at this time, the better.

The Taoiseach met the parties in Northern Ireland yesterday, as he said. He stated afterwards that restoring Stormont is vital. He is reported as describing these meetings as useful and constructive. As we know, the DUP will not agree to the restoration of the Northern Ireland Executive until a comprehensive deal on the protocol is agreed. Will the Taoiseach update the House on his talks yesterday and on the prospect of restoring the power-sharing Executive, having regard to the looming 28 October deadline?

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Taoiseach's visit and meetings with the political party representatives in Stormont yesterday. It is irresponsible that we do not have a fully functional assembly and Executive in Northern Ireland. Other Members have referred to the cost of living and the huge pressures on families and businesses in practically all sectors of society. The last thing we need is ongoing difficulty with the protocol. The European Union to its credit has shown flexibility. The Commissioner responsible for these areas of negotiations and talks has indicated that the proposals the European Union put to the British Government last October would meaningfully deal with many of the issues of concern to people in Northern Ireland. When I speak to my neighbours north of the Border and people in my constituency who trade with Northern Ireland they do not want obstacles put in the way of trade. They want free movement to continue. Whatever difficulties there are, they want them sorted out. They want the political institutions fully working on behalf of the people who elected Members to the Northern Ireland Assembly. They want an Executive working on behalf of all the people of Northern Ireland.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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It is welcome to hear the Taoiseach had constructive meetings yesterday. At the recent Ireland's Future event, in which I was glad to participate, concern was expressed by all present about the vacuum in Northern Irish politics with the continued failure of restoration of the institutions of the Executive and the assembly and the looming deadline of 28 October set by the British Government. Will the Taoiseach update the House further on whether the Irish Government has taken a position on this looming deadline? Does the fact of the deadline, if an election were to proceed after 28 October, amount to granting the DUP a veto over the assembly on the issue of the protocol? Does conflating restoration of the assembly with resolving the issues with the protocol amount to rewarding those who have been holding the political system in Northern Ireland hostage? Do the Taoiseach and Government have concerns that this will be the case if an election is called because nothing can be done to resolve the deadlock between now and the imminent deadline of 28 October?

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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It has been announced today that elections will take place on 15 December in the North of Ireland if the October deadline is not met. Ten days before Christmas, the people of the North will be going to the polls again.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Who announced that?

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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It was announced today by the electoral commission in the North of Ireland I understand. If the deadline is not met in October, this will be the election day. This is what I understand has been announced.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It has not been announced by the British Government.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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This is the information that has come through from the electoral commission. I am open to correction if it is not the case. The election will be a sham if we do not have reform of the processes by which the elections and the assembly function.

4 o’clock

If the DUP comes back and blocks the Executive from running again, we will be in the same stalemate we are in today, which is an expensive and costly stalemate. Right now, people in the North of Ireland are suffering significantly from the biggest cost-of-living crisis they have ever experienced, and they are getting no help from Stormont. MLAs are getting millions of euros in salary and not doing their job for the people. Aontú welcomes that the Taoiseach, during previous questions, said he would be supportive of reform of the institutions sometime in the future. We also welcome that the Alliance Party has now agreed with our view that there needs to be reform of it, but will the Taoiseach fast-track reform of the institutions so the DUP cannot hold us to ransom anymore?

5:00 pm

Photo of Mick BarryMick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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I want to voice solidarity with Royal Mail postal workers in Northern Ireland and in Britain. Their employer has announced 10,000 redundancies but plans to recruit new staff at 20% below the current rate, as well as plans to sell off the profitable parcel service. Royal Mail made a £758 million profit last year, paying out more than half of this to shareholders. The workers who are striking are fighting not just for decent pay and condition, but to defend the service. I see they have set up a strike fund, to which I intend to donate. I hope many sections of the labour movement here will likewise. All of this is downstream of the Tory Government's decision to privatise the postal service over the last decade. The Taoiseach's Government is aping Tory privatisation policy in the banking sector, bus services and local authority services. The Taoiseach may shake his head but it is a fact. Will he recognise this is not just bad news for workers but for services, and will he steer clear of such disastrous policies in future?

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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Two weeks ago, in response to me, the Taoiseach denied there is a hard border on this island for many non-EU migrants. I would like him to explain this. I do not understand how he does not accept that for many people from non-EU countries, such as those who are married to UK or Irish nationals, refugees with leave to remain or indefinite leave to remain, asylum seekers and migrant workers, there is a hard border. They are not able to cross the North-South Border to access education or services, to meet loved ones or to participate in cross-Border sporting activities. For many people there is a hard border on this island.

In the same response, the Taoiseach spoke about having met with the North West Migrants Forum. They dispute that and say that some of their activists had a brief discussion with him on 1 April 2022 when he committed to meet with them. Will he agree to meet with them and to schedule the meeting with the North West Migrants Forum?

Finally, in the same response, the Taoiseach stated, "Deeper analysis is required and we will undertake that." This was in relation to the many allegations of racial profiling at the Border. What is the plan to conduct such deeper analysis?

Photo of Ruairi Ó MurchúRuairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The British Government, as we have all seen lately, is dealing with the outworkings of Brexit and other issues and has difficulties. The mood music has improved but it must be made clear that the protocol is the only show in town. While all streamlining is welcome, we need to make sure the British Government passes that message onto political unionism. The only other show in town is making sure the institutions and the Executive are up and running and actually delivering for people.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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On the issue raised by Deputy Quinlivan, of course the British and Irish Governments are key in underpinning the Good Friday Agreement. The Minister for Foreign Affairs has been working with the new Secretary of State and engaging with the political parties on this.

I met with political parties yesterday and I have met with the British Prime Minister about the restoration of the institutions. She was clear that there would be an election in line with the legislation as part of existing agreements. The political parties, including the DUP, know that is the position of the British Government.

I say this is in response to all Deputies: Deputy Haughey asked about an update on yesterday's talks, and I made it clear during those talks that four parties want to go back into the Executive and the DUP says it wants the protocol issue resolved prior to going back. I made the point that they should go back in. The people have voted and their mandate should be respected and the institutions should be upheld. People should be able to attend the Parliament, which is the normal thing that happens after an election. People go to the Parliament and form a government or, in this case, an executive. That is what should happen and I pressed that.

Deputy Tóibín raised the matter of subsequent reform. I do not think the Alliance Party would appreciate the Deputy taking credit for its members coming to the view that there should be reform.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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We have been articulating this for the past two years.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Alliance Party have been on this topic for about ten years, if not more.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Aontú was the first party to articulate it.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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To be fair to the Alliance Party members, they are right in terms of how they are being treated in the new situation in which they have 17 seats. It is a demonstration that the existing structures do not work, but that said, the existing structures are there under the electoral framework for which people voted. Therefore, the results must be vindicated. I do not think we can do reform before this Executive is formed. It should be formed under the existing framework and that would be the fair thing to do. In the fullness of time, over the next five years, if people want to examine that - they should in my view - it should be examined for the next election.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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But what if the next election is on 15 December?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are serious issues here in that people voted in a certain way and you cannot change the will of the people. The people have voted and their votes should be reflected in the institutions. I would be very serious about that. What the Deputy is suggesting could have real implications that could be negative. Reforming systems is done best through proper engagement. The Deputy referred to a date that is not in anyone's-----

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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The electoral commission has written to political parties.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy was surmising through the electoral commission but he cannot make a declaration that the election will take place on 15 December. That may have been unintentional on his part but it might give the wrong impression to people.

Deputy Brendan Smith made an important point and he was correct. All parties still believe in access to the Single Market, which is an important point. No one is saying to me that we want to get rid of or end access to the Single Market, because access to it is working for manufacturing, the food industry and other sectors in Northern Ireland. In terms of consumer-facing goods, goods coming from the UK into supermarkets and not going anywhere else, there are issues that the European Commission is anxious to resolve with the British Government. Technical talks have begun and we should let those talks take their course.

Deputy Bacik again raised the issue of the election, which I have answered in the sense that this is all done by agreement. It was intended to prevent the stop-start nature of the Executive, because too often it was being pulled down. There was a period when Sinn Féin left for two or three years due to the heating issue. Going way back to my time as Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Executive was down for a year. We had discussions on devolution of justice and we were told that this would never happen again. The new agreement included mechanisms that would deter this and, lo and behold, we are back to where we were. All political parties should have a long-term commitment to the institutions, irrespective of what happens, to get issues resolved around the table. That is what should happen.

Deputy Barry raised the issue of Royal Mail workers. I understand where he is coming from in his support of workers, but to compare the situation in Ireland with Tory policy-making makes no sense. We have a national transport system. Our railways are nationalised. If one were to try to nationalise British rail, it would be considered far left.

Photo of Mick BarryMick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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Privatising the buses.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have a State transport company.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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A lower top tax rate.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I was honoured to be invited last week to address the National Bus and Rail Union annual conference, given that my father was a founding member of the union.

Photo of Mick BarryMick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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Did you listen to them opposing your privatisations?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Ireland has a different attitude to this. We have not nationalised water. Sorry - we have not privatised water.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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You wanted to.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have nationalised water, unlike the UK. We are in a far different situation here. I would argue the propaganda sound bite does not work in the comparison Deputy Barry made.

I happen to agree with some of what Deputy Ó Murchú said. We can modify and make changes.

Over time, people are becoming more comfortable with some aspects of how we monitor trade. If the EU gets the data, there is a lot more we can do to ease people's concerns. The bottom line is to get into talks. If we can get a talks process going between the European Union and the United Kingdom, these issues can be resolved. People have raised legitimate issues. All of the other parties accept there are issues to be raised around the protocol. Their attitude is, correctly, that it should go to the members of the Assembly while resolving them. The DUP has a different view. In my view, these matters can be resolved and we should work to resolve them.

5:10 pm

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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I asked about migrants.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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When I said "I met", I think we getting too literal about this. I met the people concerned in Derry. It was not a meeting around a table. We discussed the matter. I am not into nitpicking about the issues, nor should the Deputy be. Rather, we should approach these things in good faith and not try to create advantage.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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The Taoiseach will meet them.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Subject to my schedule. My officials have met them. We are anxious to properly analyse these issues. When I said there should be no hard border, there is no one stopping anyone on the Border and saying they cannot come in because they are a migrant. That is a hard border.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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Legally, people cannot cross it.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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A hard border is someone stopping people, as is happening in many borders around Europe. That is the point I was making in responding to the Deputy.