Dáil debates
Tuesday, 18 October 2022
Ceisteanna - Questions
Social Dialogue
4:30 pm
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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12. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the social dialogue co-ordination unit in his Department. [48039/22]
Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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13. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the social dialogue co-ordination unit of his Department. [49904/22]
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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14. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the social dialogue unit of his Department. [50102/22]
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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15. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the social dialogue unit of his Department. [50105/22]
Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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16. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the social dialogue co-ordination unit in his Department. [50365/22]
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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17. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the social dialogue co-ordination unit in his Department. [51653/22]
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 12 to 17, inclusive, together.
The social dialogue unit co-ordinates and supports the Government’s overall approach to social dialogue through a variety of mechanisms, including the Labour Employer Economic Forum, LEEF, which engages with representatives of employers and trade unions on economic and employment issues insofar as they affect the labour market and which are of mutual concern. The most recent plenary meeting, which I chaired, took place on 7 September. This was an opportunity to look at current challenges, in particular in the areas of energy and the cost of living. Under the auspices of LEEF, there has been significant progress on issues such as the introduction of statutory sick pay, workplace safety during Covid-19 and the report of the high-level review of collective bargaining.
The social dialogue unit also supports my engagements with representatives from the environmental pillar, the community and voluntary pillar and the farming and agriculture pillar. This includes meetings I held in recent weeks with the community and voluntary pillar and the environmental pillar to discuss how social dialogue can be further strengthened, as well as issues of concern to the sectors. Social dialogue and engagement between Government, the trade unions and other representative groups also takes place through structures like the national economic dialogue, the National Economic and Social Council, the national dialogue on climate action, the National Competitiveness and Productivity Council, and through many sectoral groups and with Ministers and Departments directly. Another model for broad-based social dialogue are citizens' assemblies, including the current assemblies on biodiversity loss and on a directly-elected mayor for Dublin. Next month will also see the first civic forum which will support dialogue between the community and voluntary sector and local and central government. The unit will continue to support me and the Government as we look forward to enhanced social dialogue, given the many challenges we face as a country in the period ahead.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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In recent weeks, the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment met representatives from a number of trade unions and others to discuss the recent minimum wage increase and the Low Pay Commission's recommendations on a living wage. As representatives of the Irish Congress of trade Unions, ICTU, pointed out at the joint committee last week, while much is made of Ireland having one of the highest minimum wage rates in the EU, when the purchasing power of the minimum wage workers is considered this drops the minimum wage rate from second to seventh place among our EU peers. Dr. Bambrick from ICTU also noted that the increases in the minimum wage have not kept pace with wage growth in the wider economy in the last two decades. The current hourly rate is now just 52% of median earnings, delivering salaries below the 60% poverty line and the 66% official low pay threshold.
When first introduced, the minimum wage was approximately equivalent to two thirds of the median hourly wage. Surely the Taoiseach accepts that this straw man proposal falls far short of delivering what is an appropriate income for workers in a modern 21st-century economy. It is worth noting that in preparation for the EU directive on adequate minimum wages, Germany has already increased its minimum wage to 60% of median income. As there is no substantive evidence that its introduction will impact on employment and statutory protections are already in place for employers, will the Taoiseach explain why he continues to take such a regressive approach to the introduction of a living wage?
Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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Last week, the Dáil debated the Work Life Balance and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2022. It is welcome that it will be amended to provide for domestic violence leave, but the Labour Party is asking that it also be amended to provide for reproductive health-related leave. We introduced a Bill in the Seanad last year which would provide for paid leave of up to 20 days for women who suffer an early miscarriage and for up to ten days for those employees who need time off work to access treatments such as IVF. The Government did not oppose our Bill, but we want to see some urgency in the implementation of its measures. We are launching a campaign today calling on the Government to amend its Work Life Balance and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2022 to include our proposals, which would a have a huge impact for so many women and men across Ireland.
We have been contacted every week, by women in particular, asking when our Bill might become law and seeking to achieve more compassionate workplaces. I should give credit to Councillor Alison Gilliland, who led on this campaign through the INTO and the Teachers Union of Ireland, TUI. The TUI has done research showing how necessary it is to have this sort of provision whereby employees would have access to paid leave when they suffer an early miscarriage or need limited time off work to access reproductive health treatments like IVF.
4:40 pm
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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On the question of people who are paying multiple tariffs on gas and energy and are on district heating systems compared with those who are being massively ripped off on conventional contracts with energy companies, what will the Government do? For example, I met tenants from the new and much-trumpeted cost rental development on Enniskerry Road. They were delighted to get cost rental apartments, only to be shocked to discover that they are paying a tariff that is about four times what everybody else is paying and, as we know, everybody else is being ripped off on energy prices. People are looking at bills of €600 that are unpayable and they are also on pay-as-you-go contracts. This is a real concern for them. What will the Government do to make sure that people who are on district heating systems will not be paying tariffs that are multiples of the rip-off prices everybody else is already paying?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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The Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan, said yesterday that people granted refugee status who are still living in direct provision accommodation should have to pay rent. I am sure the Taoiseach has visited direct provision centres and I am sure he will agree that we are not talking about luxury penthouse suites, detached houses, nice apartments or anything like that. We are talking about cramped and shared rooms with limited and often horrifying food supplies. These are very difficult living conditions for people. Around 40 people have been living for over ten weeks in a tent in Tralee, with the wind shaking the tent around them as they try to sleep. There is a total of around 300 people in direct provision living in tents as we speak. We regularly hear the horror stories of direct provision centres run by large corporations like Aramark that squeeze all the profit they can out of people seeking asylum. It seems utterly monstrous that the Government would try to imitate those companies and squeeze people who have nowhere left to turn during this cost-of-living and housing crisis by threatening them with homelessness if they do not cough up the money. I ask the Taoiseach to pledge that nobody in direct provision or any emergency homeless accommodation should have to pay to live in such deplorable conditions.
Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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About 25 minutes ago, the Taoiseach told Deputy O'Reilly that the Government was anxious to defend the employment regulation order in the security industry. This ERO would have ensured a minimum rate of pay for security workers of a mere €12.50 per hour but there is an injunction out against it. Is the Taoiseach aware that the Department of Transport recently gave the contract for security work at its head office in Dublin to the company that took out that injunction? Does he believe that a company that went to such extraordinary lengths to maintain poverty pay in the security industry is deserving of contracts? Will he ask the Minister to ask this company to drop this injunction and pay its workers, at the very least, the minimum rate ordered by the courts and make very clear to it that the contract will not be renewed unless there is action taken on these issues?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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We are on the precipice of collapse in childcare and the early childhood care and education, ECCE, sector. I cannot overstate the severity and seriousness of this problem. It is not happening by accident. There were 77 net closures in 2019, 70 net closures in 2020, 62 net closures in 2021 and in this year so far there have been 80 net closures. It is estimated there will be 226 net closures next year. The Government is closing these businesses down, especially with the new core funding model. I have said this over and over to the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy O'Gorman, and he seems completely oblivious to what is happening. The failure to provide enough funds for these businesses to cope is forcing them to close, mainly in rural areas. We are doing damage to businesses and deleting options for parents in childcare in their areas. In November, there will be rolling strikes in childcare and ECCE services across the State. These protests will impact on parents and children. Will the Taoiseach step in and make sure these businesses have enough to survive?
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Taoiseach and I will pass on the information provided. As has been said, we need a bespoke solution in the short term for communal or district heating systems, particularly those that are powered by gas, which will not work in the long term. The solution is to change to biomass or geothermal energy and that has to be facilitated.
A company in County Louth contacted me pointing out that ESB Networks had passed on an increase to all electricity providers. For this company, which is already facing huge increases, the increase is an extra €22,239 per year on top of what it is already paying. This issue needs to be addressed.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Quinlivan asked about the minimum wage. We have an independent Low Pay Commission that deals with the minimum wage. That was agreed in the House.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I was talking about the living wage, which is different and would enable workers to have a decent standard-----
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy talked about the minimum wage as well.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but my question was on the living wage.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy talked about the minimum wage as well.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but-----
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I want to make the point that the minimum wage is determined by an independent commission, which also then-----
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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The Government can accept that recommendation or not accept it.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I know but the value of the independent-----
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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The question was on the living wage.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The reason we set up an independent commission was to avoid, every single year, having partisan perspectives on it. We wanted it professionally done and well researched with a balance of considerations taken into account. That commission also assisted the Tánaiste and did some work on a living wage. The Tánaiste has published the details of that and has given a timeline for us to achieve a living wage by 2025. It is a good initiative and it represents substantial and significant progress on where we were. It is reasonable and balanced and it is subject to review over the coming years on an ongoing basis.
On Deputy Bacik's point, I will speak to the Minister about where that legislation is. I have sympathy with what the Deputy is saying about early miscarriage and the need for some parental or paid leave. I will come back to her on where that is in terms of the legislation and IVF treatments.
Deputy Boyd Barrett raised the issue of multiple tariffs on domestic heating and referenced Enniskerry Road and the cost rental scheme there. That is a very good scheme, which the Minister deserves credit for introducing and giving a bit of momentum to. We hope we will see far more cost rental housing. I will talk to the Minister on the issue of tariffs. I do not have the details so I ask the Deputy to submit them to us. On a broader basis, domestic heating and district heating systems need to be examined in the context of the energy crisis and what supports we can give to protect tenants, in particular, from exorbitant energy costs.
Deputy Paul Murphy raised direct provision centres and the comments by the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, yesterday. Where someone is fully employed, is a citizen of the State, may have been in a position for two or three years to leave direct provision but has chosen not to do so and is on a good salary, as with anyone in social housing or any rental situation, some contribution should be made. It does not have to be a market rent and no one is suggesting that but making a contribution, given the enormity of the challenges the State is facing, is not unreasonable.
Those proposals have not yet come before the Government. There will be further meetings in respect of all of these issues so that we have equity across the board in the treatment of people in different contexts and different situations. Any contribution would have to take into account the conditions that people are living in. There are now substantial numbers of people who have been in a position to leave direct provision for quite some time but have chosen not to do so. This was before the current crisis and it was prior to last year.
4:50 pm
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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There is no housing.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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More than two years ago, there were up to 1,000 people who were in direct provision and could have left but decided to stay.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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That is because they have no homes.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The number is probably higher now. I am speaking in particular about people in employment.
Deputy Barry spoke about an employment regulation order. The Government has to act within the law. People are entitled to take out an injunction, whether or not we agree with them. In this case we do not agree with them but they are still entitled to take out an injunction. We do not say people will not get a contract if they take out an injunction against the State. That would be almost tantamount to the State entering into an abusive relationship with the people to whom it issues contracts.
Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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These are people who are trying to maintain poverty pay.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That would be a real slippery slope if it were to be applied in other situations and people could only get a contract from the State if they had to do what the State tells them in other areas.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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It involves public procurement.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That might be the authoritarian way of the-----
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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That is a decent public procurement process.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is the kind of stuff the Kremlin gets involved in and other regimes.
Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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It is poverty pay.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I would not accuse the Deputy of being a fan of Stalin but that was the old collectivisation stuff of people doing as they were told. I do not agree with people taking out injunctions against the order in any event.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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Challenge the injunction.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We do not support the injunction. We are against it.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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You have not challenged it.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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To respond to Deputy Tóibín, huge funding has gone into childcare in the past two years. The idea it is on the precipice of collapse given the huge funding going in does not add up. There may be issues between providers and the State.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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It is not viable for the small businesses.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will raise the matter with the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, and ask him to engage with Deputy Tóibín.
To respond to Deputy Ó Murchú, we agree on bespoke models in respect of domestic heating. We are keeping the wider issue of supports for businesses and the protection of jobs under review.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I asked a question about ESB Networks.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did not get that question.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We will not put it again.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did not hear it. I apologise.