Dáil debates

Thursday, 6 October 2022

Ceisteanna ar Sonraíodh Uain Dóibh - Priority Questions

Brexit Issues

9:10 am

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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3. To ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade if he will provide the details of the latest development in relation to talks between the European Union and the British Government in respect of the Northern Ireland protocol; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [49445/22]

Photo of Michael LowryMichael Lowry (Tipperary, Independent)
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4. To ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade if he will provide details of the Government’s recent engagement with the United Kingdom Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland concerning the Northern Ireland protocol; the other engagement that has taken place with other European Union member states, EU institutions and globally in support of Ireland’s Brexit priorities; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [49453/22]

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to ask the Minister about the current position in respect of discussions on the Irish protocol, given the fact that there has been a lot of recent focus on, and talk about, an opportunity to reset and a change in the mood music. Is the Minister optimistic that progress will be made quite soon to address the concerns some people have with the Irish protocol?

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 3 and 4 together.

Given that the questions are paired, will I have a bit of extra time?

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is right.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I just wanted to know that before I started. This is a slightly longer answer but I would like to give quite a lot of detail to the House on this particular issue.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Deputy Berry is taking Question No. 4.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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This is an important and current issue. I believe we currently have a window of opportunity for a much-needed reset in EU-UK relations. I welcome the positive statements from the new UK Government about its desire to find a negotiated settlement on the protocol on Northern Ireland. We now need to see those sentiments turned into constructive engagement between the UK and the European Union. We need political will focused on finding jointly agreed solutions to issues of genuine concern to people and business in Northern Ireland.

It is positive that for the first time in over six months, the EU and British negotiation teams have resumed technical discussions at official level this week. Ireland fully supports the Commission’s approach to addressing the challenges around the implementation of the protocol.

Our early engagements with Prime Minister Truss and her team have been constructive. The Taoiseach and Prime Minister Truss had a good discussion in London on 18 September. I spoke with the new UK Foreign Secretary, James Cleverly, and look forward to a substantive in-person meeting with him in London this evening. I also had a frank and substantive meeting with the new Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Chris Heaton-Harris, in Belfast last week and we will meet again in London tomorrow for the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference. The Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne, spoke to his new UK counterpart, Leo Docherty, this morning.

The Taoiseach, the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, and I continue to engage extensively with our EU counterparts, as would be expected. The Taoiseach remains in close contact with President von der Leyen and I speak regularly to Vice President Šefčovič, as has been the case throughout Brexit. I expect I will speak to him again this afternoon, before meeting James Cleverly this evening. There remains an unshakeable commitment across the EU to mitigating the impacts Brexit brings for this island.

The Government is in ongoing contact with key figures in the US Administration and Congress. I had the opportunity to speak briefly with President Biden in New York recently. We are very grateful for continued bipartisan US support for peace and stability in Northern Ireland throughout the Brexit process, including the President’s stance on the importance of negotiated EU-UK agreements on the protocol in order to protect the gains of the Good Friday Agreement.

Our consistent message in all these engagements has been to urge the British Government to re-engage with the European Union. Only joint solutions will be successful and sustainable. We need to focus as a priority on the issues of genuine concern to people and business in Northern Ireland, particularly around the movement of goods between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Working together, we can ensure certainty and stability and maximise the benefits of the protocol for all in Northern Ireland. I am focused on the formation of an Executive in Northern Ireland before the 28 October deadline. I have been clear with everyone that discussions on the protocol should proceed in parallel to the process of Executive formation.

The European Union remains committed to making the protocol work. There is sufficient flexibility within the protocol to address the issues of concern to people in Northern Ireland, in my view. While our engagements in recent weeks have been positive, it remains a fact that the British Government is proceeding with legislation which would, if enacted, disapply core elements of the protocol, amounting to a breach of international law. I have been very clear with my British counterparts that this unilateral approach does not help rebuild trust in the British-Irish relationship or the EU-UK relationship.

I firmly believe that joint solutions can be found to the genuine issues of concern on the protocol by the EU and the UK working together in a spirit of partnership. The Government and I will do everything we can to support those efforts. We currently have a real and renewed opportunity to resolve these issues and we will, as I said, do everything we can to take that opportunity. However, positive sentiment and a change in mood is one thing but actually delivering the compromises that are needed to get a result is another.

9:20 am

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The tentative optimism that is there at this point is welcome, as is the fact that conversations are going to start. It is the first time in many months that conversations have taken place. It is a welcome departure from the autocratic approach taken previously. Will the Minister outline some of the parameters regarding his meeting this evening with the British Foreign Secretary, James Cleverly? It would be interesting to see what may be discussed. Issues such as the European Court of Justice are critical. I ask for the Minister's views on whether he is confident that the EU is rock solid in its position with regard to the European court.

Liz Truss is open to conversations but, given her political instability, are there concerns that her position may shift very quickly to appease very strong pro-Brexit voices in her party in order to sustain her own future?

Photo of Cathal BerryCathal Berry (Kildare South, Independent)
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I too welcome the restart of negotiations between the EU and UK negotiating teams on the Northern Ireland protocol. It is a good thing. I also welcome the change in tone, in particular, the apology by Steve Baker during the week. It is quite a rare event in international relations these days that someone would apologise. That is also a good thing and he should be commended on it.

My question relates to a matter raised during the Minister's comments. The draft legislation introduced in the UK House of Commons over the summer would, if approved, unilaterally set aside some components of the Northern Ireland protocol. Where are we with that at present? Is it still working its way through the UK Houses of Parliament or has it been paused? If it has not been paused, would the Minister welcome such a pause as a further act of goodwill in advance of negotiations?

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Sometimes, in moments of opportunity like this, less is more in terms of what is said publicly. We are trying to rebuild a relationship of some trust, which has been largely absent for quite some time. Certainly, the conversations I have had with the new Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and his deputy, Steve Baker, have been warm. There is a genuine effort on the British side to try to rebuild and reconstruct relationships with Ireland, which is good. That is clearly under instruction from the Prime Minister's office because it is happening across the board.

My meeting this evening will focus on timelines and subjects where we think it is possible to make progress sooner rather than later. It will not be possible to resolve all the issues linked to the implementation of the protocol by 28 October but we could make significant progress on some of the issues that really matter to people in Northern Ireland, including the unionist and business communities. There are issues that need to be resolved and can be resolved relatively quickly, such as issues around tariffs and checks, the nature of those checks, and how we could move towards what Vice President Šefčovič has called "virtually invisible" checks by co-operation, partnership and sharing of data and information on trade flows and so on.

This is not easy stuff. If it was, it would have been done long ago. The chances of resolving these issues and bringing an end to the stand-offs on the protocol are enhanced by a new approach based on partnership rather than unilateral action. The UK Government unilaterally progressing and passing this legislation and making it law will, as I said many times, cause many more problems than it will solve. The legislation is in the system-----

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Minister will get a chance to come back in. I am very sorry but we are way over time.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I will address the matter of the legislation when I come back in.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I will give way and we will then have a free-for-all.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thought I had double the time, that is all.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Minister did have double time. He had four- and two-minute slots and will get a chance to come back in.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Sinn Féin is ready, willing and able to go into the Executive in the North today, tomorrow or as quickly as possible. We have been since the recent elections in the North. Chris Heaton-Harris has said that come 28 October he will push the button with regard to assembly elections. It is a matter of concern that elections are now being put forward. He is saying he is bound by legislation, which is unhelpful. On the Minister's engagement with unionism, are unionists serious about getting back into the Executive? Are the issues of concern to them regarding the protocol insurmountable? Can they be addressed before that deadline of 28 October?

Photo of Cathal BerryCathal Berry (Kildare South, Independent)
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I thank the Minister for his response. I appreciate he has to be much more circumspect than me when speaking in Parliament; I can comment much more freely. My point is that our two islands have solved vastly more complex problems than the protocol.

If the will is there, we can certainly do it again. There is a proposal floating around that we could treat goods travelling from Great Britain and staying in Northern Ireland differently from goods travelling from Great Britain through Northern Ireland and into this jurisdiction and, by extension, the EU Single Market. I would be grateful for the Minister's thoughts on that. I believe we can come up with a solution that respects the integrity of the EU Single Market but also that of the UK internal market.

9:30 am

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I will pick up where I left off last time on the legislation. Of course it would be helpful if the legislation was formally frozen but I am not sure that ask is on the table because we are trying to make progress without creating barriers or raising things we cannot agree on. The legislation is there in the background. We know that and are not particularly happy about it but it is best ignored for now. It is not moving quickly and there is no chance that it will be passed by the end of the year. It has been through the House of Commons for an initial reading and is going to the House of Lords, where there will be a lot of concerns, amendments and debate on the legislation. It is there but it is not in danger of becoming law any time soon. Let us park that to one side. The official position is very clear; should that legislation become law, it would create huge problems as regards the relationship, trust and legal challenges. However, we now have a window. We should use it and not be distracted by where the legislation is.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank the Minister.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Do I not have double the time rather than just two minutes each time?

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Minister had double the time to start with, he then had two minutes for his first supplementary reply and now one minute for this. I am sorry to keep intruding.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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If they are the rules, we will have to work within them. I thought I had twice the time to answer each question if two Deputies were asking. Deputy Brady's questions were pretty important.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We will stop the clock for a minute. It is not good to keep interrupting the Minister and the Deputies as we go on but the times are set. I have been letting both run over each time. The Minister and the Deputies have gone well over, sometimes by 30 seconds and sometimes a minute, in addition to the extra time provided to the Minister. I will double-check in case we have deprived the Minister in the last few seconds but we certainly have not beforehand. He had four minutes and then two----

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I am not complaining. I am just saying these are important issues.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We are moving on to the last question. There are 30 seconds, two minutes and four minutes.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I will come back to the matter for the Deputy. There is another question on the topic later.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The next question is actually Deputy Brady's so he might be willing to give the Minister some time. It is entirely up to the Deputy and the Minister.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It was my understanding that there was double the time for each response but I hear what the Leas-Cheann Comhairle is saying.