Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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This is about Uber. I pay tribute to the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists for its excellent work in publishing the Uber leaks. It revealed a major corporation, valued at $44 billion, setting itself up as a disrupter, a modern company and so on, but in reality pursuing the old, tried and tested methods of major capitalist corporations.

One, it highlighted major exploitation of workers. These people provide nothing more than an app and made themselves incredibly rich, by driving down terms and conditions across the world.

Two, Uber used money to buy political influence and was willing to go to any ends to achieve its aims. It is worth quoting one of Uber's people who said, "Violence guarantee[s] success. And these guys must be resisted." He called for a counter protest to be organised in Paris against taxi drivers in order to create violence to drive through Uber's programme. What did it look like in this country? It looked like Uber writing the manifesto for Fine Gael. The election manifesto of 2016 states, "New platforms are being developed that allow everyone to earn extra income in this sharing economy." It sounds great. Is it accurate, as John Moran claims and Uber accepts, that this was effectively written by Uber? Did Fine Gael or Uber write it? It was an incredible case of corporate capture by the largest political party in Ireland at the time. I have another question. Does that continue? Is lobbying ongoing? Is there a relationship between lobbying and the statement of the leader of Fine Gael, the Tánaiste, a month ago when he again said that Uber could be brought into Ireland, going against the advice of the National Transport Authority, NTA?

The third point, which we will perhaps go into later, is the fact that much of the lobbying went unregistered.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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There are two really important factors at play. The first is about lobbying and the relationship between former officials, lobbyists, Ministers, senior Government officials, advisers, and in this case, Uber and the Fine Gael Party, in addition to the privileged access lobbying affords. Revelations clearly indicate that not all of the lobbying was documented or revealed, and recording of such details was deliberately avoided.

The second factor is transport policy. The NTA is actively encouraging people into the taxi industry to address a shortage of taxi drivers but, as recently as 17 June, the Tánaiste - the man who would be Taoiseach in the next number of months - is advocating for the introduction of an Uber- or Lyft-style model to liberalise the market. If you are someone who is considering entering the taxi industry but the Tánaiste is saying that we should consider introducing an Uber-style model, what decision will you make? That model fundamentally undermines the industry. Will the Minister of State put on record the Government's position on the future of the taxi industry as it relates to Uber?

Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputies for raising this matter. I am answering on behalf of the Minister for Transport.

Regarding current media reports on Uber, following a request from the company, officials from the then Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport met Uber representatives in mid-December 2015 to discuss Uber's proposal to undertake a Limerick pilot cab hailing scheme. The proposal involved trialling a service that, in Uber's view, could somehow sit outside existing small public service vehicle, SPSV, legislation. At that meeting, the Department advised the company that, under current legislation, any ride hailing service as described would require drivers and cars to hold SPSV licences. The Department made it clear that, for a pilot of this nature to proceed as proposed, a change would be required to both primary and secondary legislation as well as a significant change to current policy, and that no consideration was being given to such changes. The key primary and secondary legislative provisions relating to exemptions from SPSV licensing requirements were highlighted to Uber at the meeting and were issued to it in a document afterwards. There was no further substantive engagement with the company on the issue.

The Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, met Uber representatives on 10 June 2022. At that meeting, Uber stated that it was satisfied with the regulatory structure of the SPSV industry in Ireland, as it was clear to the company how it could legally operate here.

In Ireland, carrying passengers in a car for a payment is regulated under the Taxi Regulation Act 2013. That Act provides for regulating the SPSV sector, which includes taxis, hackneys and limousine services and is commonly referred to broadly as the "taxi industry". Under the legislation, the regulation of the SPSV industry is carried out by the NTA. The Act requires the licensing of both the vehicles and the drivers who are involved in providing services. The rationale for taxi regulation is to ensure that passengers have a safe vehicle for their journey, with appropriate insurance in place and driven by a driver who has been vetted by An Garda Síochána and, in the case of taxis, with a pre-established and verified charging system. While there are many other aspects to the overall regulatory system, these are the foundational elements, focusing on passenger safety and protection.

Uber is considered a transport service that offers the carriage of passengers for reward and is subject to the same regulation as all SPSVs in Ireland. It has been licensed to operate as a dispatch operator in Ireland since 2014.

The Department and the NTA are committed to the existing regulatory arrangements. The Minister is encouraged to hear that the NTA's driver recruitment campaign is, to date, 25% ahead in the number of applications received in comparison to its 2019 campaign. The campaign has been running since 4 July and will be open for a three-week period.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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As a member of Fine Gael, does it trouble the Minister of State that Uber wrote a section of its election manifesto in 2016? Does he know if that is the case and, if so, does it trouble him? Does it trouble him that Mr. John Moran, a former political insider and Secretary General of the Department of Finance, was boasting to Uber about how he could effectively bypass the regular registered lobbying practices by getting personal access to the then Minister for Finance, former Deputy Michael Noonan, by dropping over to his house or sending him a text or because he knew at which pubs to find him? Does it bother the Minister of State that much of this actual lobbying, which should have been registered, was not? What is the Government's plan to ensure this kind of practice cannot be followed again and does not have to be revealed by leaks?

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State did not touch on the lobbying issue at all. There is much that needs to be done in that regard. My colleague, Deputy Mairéad Farrell, introduced the Regulation of Lobbying (Amendment) Bill 2020, which the Government kicked down the road. Among other matters, this is something to which the Government must revert.

I am reading significantly into the Minister of State's final comment that the Department and the NTA are both committed to current transport policy. In fairness, Mr. Hugh Creegan of the NTA has resisted changing it and the NTA's position has been clear. The question is, what is the position of the Government and, specifically, Fine Gael? There is a crisis in the taxi industry. We need to hear from the Government that it is committed to a regulated taxi industry and shares the concern about a deregulated or unregulated competing model. I believe the officials stated that they could not see how the two "could rationally co-exist". Please, will the Minister of State put on the record that we will not see the introduction of an Uber-style model in the taxi sector?

Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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To make it absolutely clear, I am answering as a Minister of State on behalf of the Minister for Transport. Ireland's SPSV regulatory framework requires that all drivers and vehicles be licensed as a means of protecting the consumer and helping to ensure public safety. Furthermore, no special regulations have been developed to govern the carriage of passengers by passenger cars that are not SPSVs. Therefore, the classic model where anyone with a car and the relevant app may provide taxi services does not exist here. The Minister for Transport believes that the protection of the consumer and personal safety are vital objectives and must continue to be central to how the SPSV industry is regulated and operated.

Within this context, however, there is a need to evolve and be open to new technologies and innovation. In this regard, there is now widespread use of technology in the SPSV industry. Such innovations are of benefit to both consumers and operators. The Department is open to new possibilities, but the regulation of any public passenger service into the future should continue to be determined in the context of the important safety and consumer objectives that underpin our existing legislation.