Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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8. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills if he will request that personal assistant hours in further and higher education be provided based on the needs of the disabled person rather than an allocation of one personal assistant per student; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [36730/22]

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Are personal assistants hours in further and higher education provided based on the needs of the disabled person or is there a rule in the Department that there is an allocation of one personal assistant per student?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Sometimes I am asked a question that makes me eager to ask questions in return because I am interested in this area. The Department wants to hear a little bit more from the Deputy on this. I will read what I have and we might engage a bit more on it. The fund for students with disabilities provides funding to higher and further education institutions for the delivery of services and supports for students with disabilities. We know this. The fund is intended to assist in offering supports and services to eligible students with disabilities so that they can participate on an equal basis. This funding can be used to provide support and accommodation in a range of broad categories, including non-medical helpers, personal assistants and notetakers.

The disability support services in higher education institutions complete a needs assessment in respect of each student. On completion of the needs assessment, disability support staff in the institution determine the nature and level of supports, such as a non-medical assistant or a personal assistant, required by students. They can draw down from the fund for students with disabilities to provide these supports. In further education, need assessments determine the supports and accommodations requested for students and the individual education and training board or further education college is responsible for decisions on the most appropriate support to provide to the student.

I checked this out when I saw the question. We are not aware of the issue mentioned by the Deputy. I am sure she has more information. Perhaps it has been raised by a particular institution with her. If she is happy to share information with me now or afterwards in more detail we will certainly examine the matter. I want to be very clear that the entire policy rationale of the funding is that it is on a needs-based approach. The ultimate answer to the Deputy's question is that it should not have a rigid application whereby it must be this or that. It is about a needs-based assessment for each student and the institution then draws down from the fund. I am not aware of any such rigidity and if the Deputy has come across it I would be very happy to work with her on it.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister. The case I am asking about is that of a young man with quite complex disability who has identified a course he is interested in doing. The college has been very accommodating in meeting him and making sure it is accessible. The Minister has mentioned part-time courses and I believe he will be allowed to take longer to do the course. This is something that should be considered with regard to disabled people and people who suffer from chronic pain. It is something that has been raised with me. The person in this case is being allocated a personal assistant but when it comes to toileting he requires two people. This seems to be where the problem arises. Apparently the college has been told it is not allowed to allocate a second person. This is the information that is coming from him. I can seek further information or I can ask whether I can pass on his details to the Minister to look at the matter. It is coming to the stage where he is asking whether he will take up the course. Without the assistance of two people when using the bathroom he will not be able to attend and participate in the course. The college is building an accessible toilet for him.

Many of the disabled bathrooms in our public buildings are not large enough for the bigger motorised wheelchairs.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I would be very interested in following up on the issue with the Deputy. I will ask my officials listening in to the debate to expect to hear from the Deputy on the matter. My very clear understanding in checking this out is that the higher or further education institutions determine the level of support provided, but they do not do it in a vacuum. They do it based on the needs assessment. If there is a needs assessment for any student which states that there is a particular requirement, the relevant institution should be in a position to draw down from the fund to provide the support required. I am not blaming the college or the education and training board, ETB, in question. If there is an anomaly, we need to look at it. I am not familiar with the case. The Deputy is not being critical of anybody and I am not either. If there is an issue here, we should look at it. The fundamental principle is that the needs assessment sets out the student's requirements. The higher education institution outlines how it will meet the needs of the student and it then requests funding from the fund for students with disabilities. That is the process. If there is a rigidity in the system that I am not aware of or a clarification needs to be provided, I am happy to provide it. I ask the Deputy to liaise directly with my office. I will keep a personal interest in the matter.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will get the permission of the student concerned and pass on the details of the case on to the Minister.

I wish to raise another issue. Sometimes the contracts concluded between colleges or further education institutions, the provider of the PA service, and perhaps the insurance company, stipulate that the students are precluded from leaving campus during contracted hours. That is quite restrictive. For example, if a student wants to go for a coffee with friends, they are told that they cannot leave campus during contracted hours. I have heard that from the head of an institution, who highlighted the issue to me. Perhaps that is something the Minister can look at. I am also aware that the HSE has very strict rules around PA hours for non-academic PAs. I know that the issue is not entirely within the Minister's remit. The non-academic PA hours are linked to the relevant student's home county, when students often study outside their own home county. It is another issue that affects disabled students. For disabled students to be able to attend college, they need to have their PA for both non-academic and academic purposes.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy's question has been most useful in providing valuable insight through the information she has picked up. I will follow up on all three issues the Deputy has highlighted. On the specific matters raised in respect of insurance companies and the non-academic PA, I do not doubt what the Deputy said, because she has heard it from authoritative sources. However, it is very frustrating to hear that even though we have a needs-based, student-centred approach, a student cannot leave campus to go for a coffee with other students because of some insurance rules. I ask the Deputy to engage with me directly on the matter and I will take the three issues forward.