Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I thank colleagues from across the House for their expressions of support for this Bill, and all members of the Cabinet for agreeing this week to support it. I thank the Ministerfor Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy O'Gorman, and the Minister of State, Deputy English, for being present.

I thank solicitor and Dublin Mid-West constituent, William Aylmer, for his assistance in drafting this Bill. I am delighted he could be here today along with so many of my campaign team, given that they helped to get me here.

I engaged very closely with the National Women’s Council of Ireland, NWCI, to formulate this Bill. I am delighted to have its support and backing on this important issue. I will begin by explaining the contents of the Bill. The Irish Corporate Governance (Gender Balance) Bill will make provision for the regulation of gender balance on the boards and governing authorities of corporate bodies and related matters. In doing so it will provide for gender quotas to be introduced at boardroom level. It will require all companies as set out in the Bill to have 33% of each gender on their boards within a year of commencement of the Act. It will require them to have 40% within three years of commencement of the legislation. This three-year lead-in period has been included in order to take account of the typical life-cycle of a corporate board. It will mean that once the legislation is enacted companies can begin planning ahead for the next incarnation of their boards with gender balance in mind.

However, it is important to note that boards do not have to wait until this legislation is enacted to start improving gender representation in their organisations. They can do that now. I would love to see companies spurred on by this debate today, starting to address the imbalances around their boardroom tables now and not waiting to be compelled to do so by law. This Bill will compel companies as set out in the Companies Act 2014 to submit an annual report to the Companies Registration Office on the gender balance within their boardrooms. This will enable us to access the data on which executive boards meet or pass the benchmark set for them and where people fall short. The legislation is built on a “comply or explain” model to ensure that where companies do not meet the gender quotas set out, they have the opportunity to explain the shortcoming before any sanctions are applied.

Certain groups will be exempt from the legislation, including unincorporated associations, partnerships, limited liability partnerships and single director companies. It will also not apply to microcompanies as defined in the 2014 Act, or other corporate bodies with an annual turnover of less than €750,000 or which employ fewer than 20 employees, or both.

This Bill is not seeking to punish or burden small businesses. It does not seek to impinge or dampen entrepreneurship. Rather it seeks to hold larger corporations accountable to a standard of representation within their organisations. The 33% and the 40% gender quotas will be mandatory but, as I said, they will be built on a “comply or explain” mechanism. This means that companies that do not meet the gender quotas will have the opportunity to explain why they could not meet them before any action is taken to compel compliance. The law will include a statutory right that will allow any interested party to apply to the High Court for an order to compel compliance where a company’s explanation for non-compliance is deficient. This is an important part of the Bill because it will ensure that the legislation has teeth. We have seen for many years that soft targets around gender representation simply do not bring about the change we need in the time we want to see it. Quotas are a somewhat blunt instrument. I recognise that, and ideally we should not need them, but we do. Quotas are proven to work and when backed by mandatory compliance they are strengthened even further.

All companies can also apply for a certificate of compliance from the Companies Registration Office. It is my ambition that this certificate will serve as a mark of excellence in representation to show that complying is what they do. That will help them attract and retain talent. It will showcase the companies that lead on the issue of gender balance. It will do this in tandem with the gender pay gap legislation. The Bill will clearly highlight the organisations that are leading on gender representation.

I hope that this Bill will pave the way for balanced representation of both men and women in leadership roles in businesses through quotas. Boardroom gender quotas have been successfully implemented in a number of European countries. They are advocated for at EU level and were a recommendation of the Citizens' Assembly on Gender Equality earlier this year.

A recent report by the NWCI sets out the impact they could have in Ireland. Currently, we use soft targets to measure and drive the representation of women in boardrooms and State organisations. That is a welcome start and I commend the work done by bodies such as Balance for Better Business and the 30% Club. However, gender balance in our boardrooms unfortunately is not improving quickly enough. On State boards change without a quote has been painfully slow. Great progress has been made on State boards where women now represent 41% of directors but it took 25 years to meet that target which was introduced in 1993. Only 19 of 39 listed boards in Ireland have met the 2022 target of 30% female representation for the ISEQ 20 and 22% for other listed companies.

ISEQ 20 companies now have an average female representation of 32% at board level. That is welcome progress. However, the boards of other listed companies outside of these have an average of only 23% female representation. In fact, 13% of all Irish companies have no female board member whatsoever. While targets are improving the situation they are not doing enough, quickly enough. The case for legislative gender quotas on boards is made all the more convincing when we look at the international experience. Norway was the first country in the world to impose gender quotas on boards in 2006. In doing so Norway increased its female representation on boards from 5% in 2001 up to 40% in 2008, within just two years of enacting the legislation. Norway is not alone. It is top of a growing list of countries favouring gender quotas as a means of boosting gender balance on corporate boards. Countries such as Belgium, France, Germany, Iceland, India, Israel, Italy, Norway, the United Arab Emirates, Pakistan and Spain have all seen the benefits of quotas. It is time that Ireland follows the example of so many of our European neighbours by introducing gender quotas in our boardrooms.

Due to the severe economic strain suffered by many companies during the pandemic gender equality measures may fall down the agenda of governments and of company boards especially since across the EU women make up only 34% of board members and 9% of chairs. Analysts would say that this would be a mistake and that the crisis represents an opportunity for companies to invest in building more flexible, adaptable and empathetic workforces. The recent Citizens' Assembly on Gender Equality emphasised that actions were required to confront the slow progress on gender equality in both leadership and decision-making. It recommended the enactment of gender quota legislation that requires companies to have at least 40% gender balance on their boards. In keeping with the recommendations of the citizens' assembly this is exactly what my Bill seeks to achieve.

During my discussions on this Bill I had multiple meetings and engagements with organisations and interested parties such as Women Inspire, Women in Business, Women mean Business, the Professional Women’s Network, the 30% Club, ICTU, IBEC, SIPTU, Better Balance for Business and the NWCI. While each of these groups had varying opinions on how to go about achieving gender balance in our corporate boardrooms – some indeed had clashing opinions – they were all united on one thing. They all agree that women need to be better represented in the boardroom.

Gender quotas are shown to broaden the talent pool available to employers. They are shown to ensure boards think outside the box when it comes to replacing board members rather than repeatedly replacing them with people of the exact same profile – replacing men with men. Companies with balanced boardrooms make better decisions. They are shown to perform better financially and that leads to the trickle-down benefits for women in all levels in all companies.

Gender inequality is all around us. It is in many different sectors of work and areas of life. Some people will question why this Bill focuses on the corporate world and tackling representation purely in the boardroom.

There is no one Bill that could be both specific enough and broad enough to take on gender inequality in all professions and in all areas of work, of life and in business but this Bill is a start. The Bill focuses on a substantial chunk of businesses and employers in Ireland and corporate organisations.

I firmly believe that change begins at the top. It is the example and the model set forth by those at decision-making level that influences engagement at the next level. That is why it is so important to start at the boardroom. The global evidence shows that after adoption, quotas have influenced both the number of women on boards and the performance and the outcomes of decision-making bodies and broader public attitudes.

Quotas redistribute power at the top of the labour market and that has a positive trickle-down effect for middle management, for recruitment and for improving financial performance. They can also lead to smaller gender wage gaps, more flexible work options and even better measures to combat sexual harassment.

Balanced boards make better business sense. Including women ensures that full use is made of the range of talent available. More diverse perspectives are incorporated and that leads to greater innovation, higher productivity and better working conditions for everyone.

These findings are evident in the research from consultants, banks and investment research firms such as Deloitte, McKinsey, Catalyst and MCSI. In fact, in 2020 the McKinsey and Company report, Diversity Wins: How inclusion matters, found that companies the boards of which are in the top quartile of gender diversity are 28% more likely to outperform their peers financially. That research further shows that gender diversity improves private equity and venture capital returns. I believe research on the international experience speaks for itself.

Ireland needs gender quotas at a boardroom level. This Bill will create the opportunity for both men and women to be fairly represented at the top table of business. It will ultimately lead to better balance in the boardroom being achieved. Our boardrooms need to be a reflection of our society.

We all have a role to play in breaking down the unconscious biases and the reinforced stereotypes that exist in our world. Let me be clear that this Bill is not about favouring women over men. It is not about giving people opportunities they have not earned or are not qualified for. In fact, it is quite the opposite. I often hear, about this Bill, "Should it not just be the best person for the best job?" I would absolutely agree with that were men and women put on an even footing from the beginning and had men and women equal opportunity to get a place at a boardroom but they do not. Historical barriers, cultural barriers, sometimes educational barriers, and familial barriers, have put women's progress in the workplace far behind that of their male counterparts. Women have fought hard to break down those barriers. We have made significant progress in the past decade but if we do not intervene, men and women will simply never be on an even footing in the workplace.

This Bill is about breaking the cycle of replacing like with like. It is about encouraging organisations to think outside the norm when recruiting to give more women a chance to start putting work in now to ensure we have a better talent pool of board-ready women. I also want to point out that the term "female representation" is an umbrella term. Within that, there is also a need for women of colour, women with disabilities, LGBTQI women, and women for lower socioeconomic backgrounds and other marginalised groups. This Bill solely deals with the overall representation of women in corporate governance but I hope in time we will see it expanded on. It is my hope and ambition that both men and women will have equal opportunity to not only get their foot in the door but to earn a seat at the boardroom table.

I am grateful to the Acting Chairman, Deputy Mattie McGrath, for the opportunity to bring this Bill before the House and I thank him for taking my slot in the Chair.

Once again, I thank Mr. William Aylmer from the Kevin Jacob-Bernard McCormack branch of Fine Gael in Dublin Mid-West, the Bills Office, the Office of Parliamentary Legal Advisers and the Fine Gael Women's Network. I also thank the National Women's Council of Ireland, which collaborated closely with me on this Bill and which has done much for female representation in all areas of society, as well as the cross-party Oireachtas Women's Caucus for indicating cross-party support for this Bill.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I thank Deputy Higgins for bringing before the Dáil this Private Member's Bill to allow us to debate the important issue of gender balance in the leadership of Irish business and its contribution to good governance on the boards and governing councils of corporate bodies. I acknowledge the work undertaken by the Deputy in conjunction with the National Women's Council and the other individuals with whom the Deputy has worked on the development of this legislation. I welcome the opportunity it gives us to focus on an issue that is a policy priority for the Government.

As the Minister with responsibility for equality, I am ambitious to achieve substantive and sustainable gender equality on Irish boards and for Ireland's employees. I want to make clear that the Government is supportive of the principle behind this Bill. Without a doubt, the Government is supportive of the need to accelerate change in this area. We would like to work with the House to ascertain how best to make further progress.

Our policy approach, set out in the national strategy for women and girls, has focused on changing the culture of business. Significant success has been achieved through associated voluntary targets as set out in, and monitored by the independent, business-led, Balance for Better Business review group, which the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy English, will speak of in more detail. The gender imbalance in favour of men in senior business leadership and high-paid employment is one of the factors contributing to the gender pay gap in Ireland, which stood at 11.3% in 2018.

Through the Gender Pay Gap Information Act 2021, the Government has introduced a statutory obligation on employers to calculate and report on their gender pay gaps and that has come into operation for large organisations with over 250 employees from this year. I anticipate that gender pay gap reporting will encourage employers to look more closely at the gender balance throughout their organisations, in particular, to look at the example they set in their leadership and top management.

It will also provide transparency for employees on which companies are doing the most to address their gender pay gap, while allowing those organisations to showcase their good practice on the issue of gender balance. Gender pay gap reporting requirements will also be rolled out over the next number of years to organisations with over 150 employees and then to organisations with over 50 employees, eventually encompassing around two thirds of employees in the State.

Let me now turn to the Private Member's Bill itself. This proposed Bill is focused on amending the Companies Act 2014 to achieve gender balance on the boards of companies, corporations, undertakings, charities and bodies. It proposes a substantial shift in approach to the issue of achieving gender balance on corporate boards in terms of scope, obligations and enforcement. For example, the Bill requires that companies within scope achieve a minimum mandatory quota of 33% within the first year of commencement of the Bill, rising to 40% within three years of commencement. While of course our ambition should not be modest in this objective, it is worth flagging that this target could prove difficult to achieve in this timeframe, particularly for some of the smaller family businesses that would have to source directors to join the board or else face heavy sanctions by being required to do so by court order.

In terms of scope, the Bill would apply both to private and to public companies, from small to large, and that have at least two directors. The Bill also goes beyond the Companies Act and impacts on many different types of boards. For example, it includes entities such as charitable companies that are subject to oversight by the Charities Regulator. The Bill would also introduce significant compliance obligations which give rise to oversight and enforcement considerations. I again flag the potential impact of that, particularly on small companies. I am not saying that in a negative way; we merely need to be cognisant of that in analysing the Deputy's proposals. There are some further matters to be considered. Central to any consideration of potential amendments to Irish law are existing EU laws and legislative developments on gender balance applicable across member states.

Political agreement was reached last month on the final text of a new EU directive to improve the gender balance at board level in the largest EU publicly listed companies. This proposal has been in existence since 2012 when the Commission published a proposal aimed at increasing the representation of women on corporate boards in the EU. While the European Parliament adopted its position in 2013, the Council could not reach an agreement on the issue.

I think we all will welcome that progress was achieved under the French Presidency and political agreement has now been reached.

The directive is expected to enter into force later this year, with a transposition period of two years. The directive will require large EU listed companies to publish information on the gender balance on their boards. Targets are set for the boards of these listed companies, of 40% of each gender for the non-executive directors or 33% of all directors including both executive and non-executive directors. Member states will be required to ensure that listed companies that do not meet these targets adjust their selection process for board positions. The directive will also provide that, where a member state has existing domestic initiatives meeting certain criteria, they may suspend the application of the targets.

I note that the primary objectives of Deputy Higgins's Bill are broadly aligned with the proposals under this forthcoming EU directive, and I commend her on seeking to proactively align our domestic legislation with what is coming from the European Union. Examination of existing national legislation must take place first, as part of the transposition of the directive domestically. It is important that no legislation is introduced which would run contrary to or interfere with the implementation of the directive. It is important also that we have a debate and flesh out the best approach in this area, which is why the Government is not opposing the Bill today, so as to allow the start of the debate to take place. As a next step, the Government will continue working to examine the options for transposition of the EU directive. The improvement in the gender balance on listed companies achieved to date under the Balance for Better Business will be an important consideration in the approach Ireland takes to implementing the directive.

The Government supports the objective of this proposed Bill to accelerate our efforts to strive for better balance in economic decision-making. The new EU directive plays an important role in achieving this objective. I know Deputy Higgins understands that we are interacting with the new piece of legislation. My understanding is that she has agreed that we will address the directive and then we will look to see if there are any elements on which we need to proceed in terms of what is set out in her Bill. I very much welcome her adoption of that approach. I again thank Deputy Higgins for bringing forward this Bill and for giving us the opportunity to have this important debate. I look forward to working with her and others to advance the broad objectives set out in her Bill.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Although they have now left the Gallery, the staff from the convention centre are on tour tonight, and I pay a warm tribute to them for looking after us so well and kindly down there in difficult circumstances this time last year, and for a long time. I hope they will have a happy visit here this evening. I wish them all the best for the future.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate Deputy Higgins for the work she has done and the many people she has consulted to make sure that this is a rounded and balanced proposal. We had a discussion earlier in the House about changes in regard to other aspects of how enterprise interacts with people in the community, whether in terms of precarious working, protection of employees, and looking at the environmental impact of actions. This is just another example of how modern, progressive enterprise has to adjust to the expectations of society. The target that has been set in the past for the improvement in board representation is simply not being delivered. The vast majority of listed companies are falling short of what they set as a target, even though improvement must be acknowledged. A 20% representation of women on the boards in those companies is simply far too low. It is important if we want to address the many dimensions of gender inequality, be it in pay, opportunities to progress or the way in which people are treated, in order that, for example, other obligations people may have in their lives are recognised by employers. If that is to happen, businesses must set strategic priorities to make this one of the key objectives for the performance of that business. The only way that will happen is if that strategic importance is recognised at board level. Deputy Higgins's Bill is right to address this at board level because that is where expectations from outside of the company itself are set. It is members of the board who are supposed to bring wider community experience and expectations to bear on the performance of the enterprise. The ambition that Deputy Higgins has set in the Bill is absolutely right. The truth is that barriers are often deeply embedded in organisations and the fact that people cannot progress is often not immediately visible. It is not until we change the metrics that people are expected to perform against - the standards and expectations of people looking at the allocation of training opportunities and promotional opportunities - that we will have the sort of change that we need to bring about.

It is important from the perspective of society itself that we recognise the importance of gender equality in enterprise in particular, but also in other walks of life. Our own walk of life is particularly poor in that respect. If it were not sufficient to say that equality is inherently important in every endeavour, including the enterprise sector, the evidence that Deputy Higgins has quoted in her speech underpins why even on a very narrow metric of the performance of a company, the inclusion of more women and more inclusive representation generally within a company and its leadership means that better decisions are taken, companies make more money and they attract a better talent pool.

If we were to be complacent and say we are making progress and that Ireland is changing, when we look at the progress in terms of statistical performance, it is small, it is not a case of dramatic strides forward. We have not made the step change that is needed here. To see changes coming from the boardroom down is the optimal way to get the message out. If boards go a step further and make equality in the workplace a strategic priority for their enterprise, we will then start to see the barriers fall away. We will also see more creative people coming through and better opportunities for people to remain and to develop their talent. We have embedded ways by which women fall by the wayside in the conduct of much of our business. We too in this House have a lesson to learn. Apart from the legislative element, we ought to be looking at how we create equality as a strategic priority of this House. There are lessons to be learned from the initiatives that we are rightly asking those in enterprise to undertake. I am delighted to have the opportunity to support the Bill, which is very timely and appropriate. I wish the Bill well. I am pleased to hear the welcome response to it from the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the opportunity to contribute briefly to this debate. I thank Deputy Higgins for bringing forward this Private Members' Bill. I know it has been in the lottery, as such, for some time but not nearly as long as the EU has been waiting to pass the relevant directive. We are all disappointed by that, but it makes eminent sense to combine the two efforts. I hope that it can be done in an expeditious manner because, unfortunately, we do have an issue when it comes to transposing European directives in that they can sometimes be left on the back-burner. An initiative such as this cannot be left on the back-burner.

Many people will speak to various aspects of the importance of this legislation. While the equality efforts and the efforts for a greater improvement in the workplace is one, fundamentally, this is a move that is good for business. It is good for corporate Ireland and will improve the outlook for so many different businesses and corporations in this country as they look to move to a more secure and sustainable future. Companies do better when they have more diverse boards in a corporate setting that look more like the society they are trying to sell to. Unfortunately, we are stuck in a situation where that is not the case for far too many companies, sometimes for reasons beyond their own control. It is very hard when one is running a business. The Minister has outlined the difficulties that might be faced by certain SMEs in terms of working with this proposed piece of legislation.

That is where the Government must come in; the issue cannot just be left to the market. That aspect is fundamental and it is at the heart of the Bill. I am very grateful to Deputy Higgins for bringing it to the Dáil.

The global example in this area is quite clear, particularly in our near neighbourhood in the European Union, where member states, cognisant of their responsibilities under the draft directive, have put in place measures to ensure their corporate and company boards look more like society. This is a welcome development and it should be pushed forward more aggressively. The Deputy has set a fine example in this Bill. She suggested its provisions are not necessarily just for corporations. We need to lead by example in this Chamber and that is why the move at the next general election to have 40% gender quotas on electoral tickets is a sound one. I have been fully supportive of the quotas since they were introduced. We need to see this legislation brought forward in tandem with the directive to ensure we are providing the example for society more widely.

If the Acting Chairman permits, I will digress briefly to raise an issue I am particularly passionate about and which, unfortunately, has met with resistance and has stalled since it was first proposed by the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan, when he had responsibility for sport at the then Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. I refer to the introduction of gender quotas for the boards of management of the national governing bodies of sporting associations. The idea of "if you can't see it, you can't be it" is eminently important and is as applicable to the corporate world as it is to the sporting world, the political world, education settings and much more. We must seek, genuinely and ambitiously, to reach a situation in the next decade whereby the boards of our sporting organisations have 50% representation for women. That will set an example for society as a whole to follow and we might see the sports pages of our national media dedicating more than one or two column inches and the odd photograph to women's sports. The Irish women's hockey team is currently participating in the World Cup in the Netherlands. The Northern Irish women's football team is participating in the UEFA Women's Euro 2022. We have a slew of Irish boxers about to go to the Commonwealth Games. We have many amazing Irish sportswomen, a large number of whom are amateur athletes who combine their sports career with participation in the workforce, including within the corporate world. I understand a number of members of the Irish women's hockey team have progressive employers who are allowing them the time off to represent our country.

This legislation goes to the very heart of our societal responsibilities at this time to ensure we actively lead the political process to ensure we have genuine gender equality, instead of simply talking about it or putting out the hashtags. I commend the Bill to the House and look forward to supporting it through all Stages as Deputy Higgins works hand in hand with the Government to take it forward.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I am sharing time with Deputy McHugh. I am very glad to have the opportunity to speak on this really important Bill. I congratulate my colleague, Deputy Higgins, on the extraordinary work she has put into developing this comprehensive legislation. It is technically astute and deeply researched. That effort has not just been in the legislative sense; there has been a great deal of associated work, including the comparative international analysis she undertook and the deep discussion she has had with women's representative groups, business representative groups and the many allies outside this House who are trying to reach for a more equal society, particularly in business. I congratulate her on her extraordinary effort in this regard. It is very satisfying to see the Government putting its weight behind the Bill. It is really satisfying to see Deputy Higgins is ahead of the EU in respect of its agreement. The EU provisions were proposed back in 2012 but it is she who has produced the legislation. Congratulations to her. It is a pleasure to be able to speak on her proposals.

I am also very pleased to see so many male colleagues in the Chamber to support the Deputy and her important work. There is no point in groups that have been marginalised, whether women - although they are not a minority, they have been marginalised - or any other group, having to fight alone to rectify their situation. They absolutely need allies at every turn. Even though this is a representative House, there is a gender imbalance in its membership. It is very important that male Deputies continue to turn up, as they have done tonight, in support of gender equality measures.

I pay particular regard to Deputy Richmond, who correctly referred to the achievements of the Irish women's hockey team. He did so without mentioning that he was the person in the Members' bar the other day advocating for the World Cup game to be put on the television. I did not know it was on, but the Deputy did know it was on, knew the significance of it and sought to have it shown. To me, that is a day-to-day example of standing up for Irish women and Irish women's sport. It is an example of walking the walk instead of just coming in here and talking about it.

The trouble is that it is very tiresome to have to keep pointing out the very different historical experiences of men and women and, indeed, their very different contemporary experiences. It is so very tiresome to have to keep putting on the great big boots, as Deputy Higgins has had to do today, in order to take the great big steps we need to take to deal with decades of inequality. It is tiresome to have to point out the reasons it is important to do so and to have to step around our efforts not to apologise for it. The Deputy very carefully and articulately made the point today that she does not need to apologise for making these proposals and for saying that, of course, positions must be given on merit but the background experience is X. It is tiresome to have to point that out continually. I hope we get to a point where we overcome the decades of experience that is built upon one male name after another on boardroom walls and one male photograph after another in company C-suites. The soft cultural effect of that is very excluding. It may not be intimidating but it is excluding because its speaks to a past where only men succeeded, only men were capable of writing books and only men were scientists, historians and political leaders, as though women never had the capacity to do those things. Of course they had the capacity - they were just too busy dying in childbirth or rearing the children they birthed to be able to participate - if there had been the opportunity for them to be educated and to participate. We are seeking to address those decades and centuries of exclusion and a situation whereby one can point only to male authorities in every academic subject, when so many women were so capable. The idea that this imbalance is somehow not directly replicated in business, politics or any other aspect of society is just a fallacy. There is absolutely no need to apologise for the fact we now have to put on great big boots to step over those decades of historical inequality.

It is not difficult for women to identify the barriers Deputy Bruton identified. They are soft and cultural but they are a day-to-day occurrence and they are real. I will give a few examples. I have two friends who are both partners in law firms. One of them is the first female equity law partner in her firm and is very capable and experienced. She is also a single mother. She has to work twice as hard to be able to turn up and do her job, without anybody really taking account of that. During the recruitment process, she asked why she was the first female equity partner. She was told that no women had previously indicated an interest in the role. That is just not possible. It is just not true. It cannot be possible, in a situation where women make up 50% of university law students and more than 50% of graduates of the Law Society of Ireland, King's Inns and other places, that none of them is interested in being an equity partner.

What are the cultural things that are happening in between those two points? The answers are childbirth, child rearing, a differential treatment of men and women in terms of expectations in regard to caring duties and a different treatment of men and women when it comes to the provision of flexible working. I recall another situation involving a very experienced professional friend of mine who was working in a professional services accountancy firm. When she and her partner had a second baby, she looked to move from a five-day week to a three-day week. I urged her not to, pointing to the effect on her pension, promotional opportunities and inclusion. The obvious solution, of course, was that she and her partner should both move to a four-day week. However, it was simply not culturally possible for that to be accommodated in a senior commercial organisation in Dublin, or anywhere else in the country for that matter. Until it is culturally normal for a man in a senior commercial position to tell his manager that he and his partner have just had a second baby and he would like to do a four-day week for the next three years, nothing will change.

The only way for that to become normal is to have women at boardroom and executive level right across the board in order that their experience becomes normal and their seniority, having had that experience, is normal. The only way to achieve this is to introduce legislation along the lines of Deputy Higgins's Bill. I have one caveat, which is that there is no point in its provisions being limited to non-executive directors. All of the power, money and influence, including cultural influence, is at executive director level. That is the level we must target. It is not acceptable that the provisions should apply only to non-executive positions. Deputy Higgins may leave this House in 30 years after a marvellous career and get a non-executive position. It is not enough.

Her appropriate comparator is someone in an organisation now, and that person should be someone who is in an executive position running the organisation. She sets the tone in this regard.

This is about the soft cultural experience of having things explained to you, of having your own expertise explained to you. Deputy Higgins has her expertise and her own professional background, and I have mine. At least twice in recent months I have had pieces of my own academic writing explained to me by people who then admitted they had not read the material. It is so annoying, but it happens all the time and it only ever happens in the context of a male communicating with a female. It sounds like a sort of contentious and contrary point to make, but honest to God it happens, and if it happens here, and I am sure Deputy Higgins would nod in agreement with this, then it happens in every other organisation as well. It is one of the points every women's organisation highlights as being significant. I congratulate Deputy Higgins and thank her for her work today and, indeed, for the work that has gone into this legislation over the past two years.

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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Ar dtús báire, aithním mo chomhghleacaí, an Teachta Ó hUiginn, as a díograis agus as an sárobair atá déanta aici ar an ábhar seo chomh maith leis na comhairliúcháin agus an taighde fosta.

The consultations Deputy Higgins has had on this issue and the research she has carried out are very important and dovetail with the right timing as well. Even though 2012 is a long time ago, when a proposal of this kind first originated, after getting approval from the European Parliament in 2013, we see that a measure has just been agreed by the Council during the recent French Presidency. This is to be welcomed. I acknowledge all the work Deputy Higgins has carried out on this legislation. I also acknowledge all the words of encouragement, positivity and assurance from the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman. It is good to see the Minister of State, Deputy English, here as well. To have a Minister and a Minister of State here shows the importance of this issue and emphasises that while we need interventions like these, this is also about creating the feasachta, the awareness, in this regard.

This applies in all walks of life. Deputy Carroll MacNeill talked about this aspect. I was in a position of responsibility in the Department of Education and Skills in Marlborough Street. Women were very much in the minority in respect of assistant secretaries. Three vacancies came up during my time as Minister and we positively discriminated to deliver a better gender ratio among assistant secretaries. We all need to have an awareness in this regard at all levels, not just those in the private and corporate sector but those of us in the public sector as well. We must use opportunities like these in Parliament, which is a public forum, and take advantage of them to put through legislation on Second Stage on a Thursday afternoon. It is important.

I commend Deputy Higgins once again on bringing forward this important intervention. I also thank the Minister and the Minister of State, as well as Deputy Carroll MacNeill for sharing her time.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I am delighted to have the chance to thank Deputy Higgins for this Bill, which has allowed us all to focus on a policy priority of the Government. It addresses a very important issue and one I know the Deputy is dedicated to. As with all the work she does, it is extremely well researched and based on evidence. I thank her and her team, some of whom are here, for their work on bringing forward this Bill. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, and I have listened to the contributions. It is clear we are all in agreement and I am glad there are so many speakers supporting the legislation.

There is a compelling case for more diverse boards and leadership teams and it has been well made in the debate. There is also a compelling case for positive discrimination. As we look back over history and listen to some of the speeches made in this debate, it reminds us of our duty to make changes. Deputy Bruton often refers to making step changes and it is something I will never forget from my time working as a Minister of State with him. This is what we are trying to achieve here with a real step change.

At a recent Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council, EPSCO, meeting, a Commissioner used a term I liked a lot, which is that talent has no gender. It stuck out at that meeting of the Council. We must remind ourselves regularly that talent has no gender. It is important we remember this fact and recognise it at every opportunity. The benefits of more diverse leadership teams in business are well established and well documented. Companies with higher levels of diversity on their boards and senior leadership teams deliver better economic performances and better results for all of us. Increasing employment and leadership opportunities for women has been shown to improve organisational effectiveness and growth in companies. Those companies show greater levels of creativity and innovation, display a better ability to attract and retain talent and generally benefit from enhanced company reputation.

As I referred to regarding that EU debate only a few weeks ago, we saw with our banking inquiry the importance of gender balance and how we lost out as a country by not having a proper gender balance on our banking boards. More and more customers are using their purchasing power to communicate to companies what they value. Research shows that consumers are loyal to brands that commit to addressing social inequalities, such as gender balance, in their actions. This all sits comfortably with today's environmental, social and governance, ESG, agenda of companies and stakeholders. This was referenced by Deputy Bruton. Investors are increasingly focused on diversity. More employees want to work in organisations where gender balance and broader diversity form a part of the focus and of the company culture. Culture is key, and that is what we are trying to change and achieve.

We need a pipeline of talent in companies so that more diverse leadership teams and boards are possible. Young women and girls must be able to believe they can be the business leaders of tomorrow. It is our collective responsibility to ensure this is the case. The policy approach to date has focused on changing the culture of business, with associated voluntary targets set out and monitored by the Balance for Better Business initiative. This is an independent, business-led review group that was established by the Government in 2018 to improve gender balance in senior leadership in Ireland. It is supported by the Department. It was created to make recommendations on how more women can be involved in decision-making at the top level of business in Ireland. The review group examines gender mix in the governance and senior management of companies in Ireland and the issues that arise in connection with the appointment of company directors and senior management. It has set progressive targets to 2023 for the achievement of improved gender balance on boards and in the senior management of these companies. Since the establishment of the Balance for Better Business group, there has been a steady increase in the share of women on the largest listed company boards, from 18% in 2018 to 32% in March this year. I will not go through the other areas of change. They are small changes in the right direction, but they are not the step change we want to achieve and which the Bill aims to achieve.

In Ireland's case, the percentage of women on ISEQ 20 boards has more than doubled in six years. This is positive, but again it is not enough. There have been significant achievements in a short space of time but, as Deputy Higgins has clearly stated, more needs to be done. Change takes time. The progress at board level, however, shows what can be achieved if companies focus on making changes. While change can take time, it is debates such as this and Bills such as this one that can change the timeframe in this regard and drive this agenda at a faster pace. This is something on which we as a Government are delighted to work with the Deputy.

Outside of individual organisations and the Balance for Better Business initiative, much work is being done in the Government system to ensure the full and equal representation of women in Irish business leadership. This includes encouraging and enabling female participation, including through promoting women and girls in science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, and via new models of working, early learning and care that are affordable, accessible and high quality. I am glad the Tánaiste is pushing an agenda on remote working to ensure it will become a permanent feature of work. This is also a major enabler of female participation and gender balance in the workplace, right up to board level. I do not have time to go into all that now, but it is key and I am glad we are driving the agenda to legislate for remote working as a permanent feature.

Legislation that improves and protects equal opportunities in the areas of employment and family-friendly policies can make an important contribution to the broader project of changing attitudes and moving us to a more equal society. Most of us in the House are committed to this agenda. Not only can it prohibit discrimination but also it can aim to ensure full equality and practice through positive action. This Bill is focused on achieving gender balance on the boards of companies, corporations, undertakings, charities and bodies. As the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, has explained, it proposes a substantial shift in the approach to the issue in terms of scope, obligations and enforcement. The legislation proposes to amend the Companies Act 2014 to achieve its goals. That Act was a large piece of legislation. Very few people in the House have read it. I am one of them, as I chaired the relevant joint committee. Deputy Bruton, who was the Minister then, also read it. It is a massive piece of legislation. It is important we sift through it to make the changes proposed. It is the framework that sets out the rights and obligations of all parties. The amendments in this Bill need careful scrutiny and extensive consultation. We are prepared to do this because this is an important agenda.

Central to any consideration of potential amendments to Irish law are existing EU laws and legislative developments applicable in member states. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, explained that a new EU directive to improve the gender balance among the directors of companies listed on the Stock Exchange was agreed recently. Ireland was at the forefront of the work on that directive. It started in 2012 and we drove on that agenda during our EU Presidency in 2013. It is a pity it took so long, but I am glad it has passed and that we can begin to implement it. The primary objective of Deputy Higgins' Private Members Bill is aligned with the proposals of the forthcoming directive that will be transposed domestically by the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.

The Minister stressed the importance of not introducing legislation that would run contrary to the requirements of the directive. I am glad that the Government can support the objective behind the Bill. The new EU directive plays an important role in achieving this objective. Deputy Higgins, through her work and research, has acknowledged the importance of Ireland proceeding with the adoption of the EU directive. I am pleased that she has agreed to progress her Bill subsequent to the transposition of the directive. Departments can work together on the Bill and the forthcoming EU directive. We have had a positive discussion tonight. Hopefully, the Bill will bring great change. I thank the Acting Chair for affording me extra time.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister and the Minister of State not only for being in the Chamber but also for outlining the Government's position on and support for the Bill and the ethos behind it. I thank my Fine Gael colleagues who spoke in support of the Bill in the Chamber, in particular, Deputies Bruton, Richmond, Carroll MacNeill and McHugh.

Deputy Carroll MacNeill is right when she says that it is fantastic to see our male colleagues in the Chamber tonight shining a spotlight on this issue. That is both a positive and a negative. It is a positive because we need men to be allies for women in every industry, but it is also a negative. The fact that Deputy Carroll MacNeill and I are the only female Fine Gael backbenchers is a negative, and we would like to see more female Deputies. That is what the Bill is all about. Getting women to the top of whatever industry they choose to be in lies at the heart of the Bill.

The Bill builds on the work done on the ground by so many of the women's groups that I have had much interaction with in the past number of months, such as Balance for Better Business. It also builds upon the work of, for example, the former Minister of State, Deputy Stanton, and my constituency predecessor, Frances Fitzgerald, who brought her significant focus of this issue at a national level to the European stage. She has played an instrumental role in making sure that the EU directive is something from which counties like Ireland will benefit. Let me be clear: while I am very supportive of the EU ruling coming our way and the fact that we will have to adapt and ensure that we address and respond to it, I do not want us to wait for the ruling to be made. I want us to get ahead of it, prepare and move in advance of the ruling in order that Ireland will be a leader in this area within the EU.

By way of my experience, I worked in the corporate world before I was elected as a Deputy. I worked in a large multinational corporation for three female vice presidents. They inspired me to chase my dreams and achieve whatever I could. They always said that gender should never be a barrier. We need more women like them to inspire the next generation of women who are going through school and college to achieve their full potential and get to the board level of whatever company in whatever industry they want. We need more leaders, both male and female, like that. There are so many capable women out there who are board-ready.

My career thus far has shown me countless examples in the professional, NGO and political worlds of intelligent, intuitive, tenacious, capable women whom any business would be so lucky to have serving on their board. However, many would agree that barriers, such as the confidence, imposter syndrome, or becoming a parent, have held them back and significantly hampered their trajectory towards upper management and board level positions. That is not fair because it is an occurrence that does not seem to impact men in the same way it impacts women. That is why Deputy Carroll MacNeill and I do not buy into the narrative that there are more men on corporate boards simply because there are more men qualified for the job. I do not doubt the talent, intelligence or qualifications of the men on corporate boards, but the fact is that women do not get the same opportunities to even get a foot in the door to show their talent, intelligence or qualifications. For this reason, the Bill aims to level the playing field and make companies look outside their usual talent pool and to open opportunities to equally deserving women.

In my discussions with the organisations that I collaborated and engaged with in preparing the Bill, I came across an interesting stakeholder, Vivienne Jupp. She was the first female chair of CIÉ and is a founder of Board Diversity Initiative, which brings together board-ready women. It creates a database or directory of women with qualifications and credentials who are willing, able and capable of serving as executive board members. It is an excellent resource as well as a counter argument to the naysayers who say that there are not enough women to fill the spaces; there are. We need to give women the opportunity to fill the spaces.

Most companies, with a bit of effort, will find that there are women out there who are just as qualified, willing, and able to serve on corporate boards as their male counterparts. That will also bring added advantage in terms of providing a different perspective, diversity of thought and experience. That is what the Bill commits to achieving. As Deputy Richmond stated, our boardrooms need to be a better reflection of society and business consumers. We all have a role to play in breaking down the unconscious biases and reinforced stereotypes that exist. We simply have to do so. It is up to all of us across society to do this.

I recognise that the corporate world is just one area of business and life in general where gender representation needs to be looked at. Nonetheless, it is worth starting somewhere. I am confident that the Bill will deliver and confident in the support I have received from my colleagues in Fine Gael, the Minister, Minister of State, whose Department will be critical to the success of the Bill, and the different business and women's organisations, including IBEC and SIPTU, with which I have worked and engaged. I recognise the members of the cross-party women's caucus. They discussed the initiative this time last year for which there was significant willingness for cross-party support. That is why it is so important that we do this. We need to level the playing field and give women a chance to show that they can earn a place at the top table. We need to get to a situation whereby, five years from now, when someone thinks of a board, he or she does not think of a table with men around it. That is out ambition. That is where we need to get to. I commend the Bill to the House.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Well done, Deputy Higgins, and thank you for your co-operation.