Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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71. To ask the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport if he raised concerns with the Dublin Airport Authority in relation to the high volume of security staff who were let go over the past two years; if he expressed concern that letting staff go during this period was unfair and opportunistic; and if he raised the likely scenario that this would affect Dublin Airport’s ability to deal with a full return to aviation activity. [30616/22]

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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76. To ask the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport the way and the reason that the Dublin Airport Authority was able to qualify for the employment wage subsidy scheme while at the same time making employees redundant while also launching a recruitment campaign; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [30690/22]

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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89. To ask the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport the role that his Department had in the approval of the voluntary redundancy schemes implemented by the Dublin Airport Authority; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [30650/22]

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Minister raised concerns with the DAA in respect of the high volume of security staff who were let go over the past two years? Has she expressed concern that letting staff go during this period was unfair and opportunistic? Has she raised the likely scenario that this would affect Dublin Airport's ability to deal with a full return to aviation activity?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 71, 76 and 89 together.

The DAA introduced a voluntary severance scheme, VSS, during the summer of 2020 at the height of the Covid-19 crisis as part of the cost-cutting measures deemed necessary to secure the continued viability of the company. This was at a time when the DAA was losing €1 million per day, passenger traffic was substantially reduced, and there was uncertainty around the timing of a recovery with 2019 levels of passengers not envisaged until 2024 or 2025.

The DAA took a number of measures to address its cost base of which payroll was its largest cost. At the time all staff were working a four day week and salaries were reduced to 80% from normal levels, giving rise to significant savings. However, even with these temporary measures in place and given the dramatic fall in passenger numbers, the DAA advised that it needed to urgently reduce staff numbers to align with the reduced volume of business. The DAA was seeking to avoid the need for compulsory redundancies, wholesale lay-offs and permanent reductions to pay which it was ultimately successful in achieving.

Given the extremely serious situation that the DAA was in, at the height of the pandemic in 2020, the Minister for Transport and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform approved the terms and conditions of the VSS proposed by the DAA as required under the code of practice for the governance of State bodies. The VSS was closed to new applicants in December 2020 and the DAA did not start any significant external recruitment until quarter 3 of 2021 as public health restrictions on travel began to be partially lifted.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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It is quite clear with the benefit of hindsight, at least, that the DAA cut too deep. I would argue that it should have been better informed and prepared and have had better foresight of what the prospective return to aviation would look like. There is a clear charge, which I think is a logical and substantiated one, that this was opportunistic. The nature of the cuts by the DAA was not haphazard but deliberately targeted at the highest earners with the most experience. That had a direct impact on the ability of the organisation to ramp up capacity. What involvement did the Minster of State have in that decision making process? Did she agree with the DAA's analysis? Did she have to sign off on those measures?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I would be concerned about the way in which it was handled. It was quite possible to project forward what would be required in the future, knowing what had prevailed and knowing as well that there were considerably generous subventions from Government to ensure that positions of employment were retained and the service was able to continue in the face of serious trading challenges. What really takes me to the fair is the bit where at the end of the day, it would appear that the DAA was declaring people redundant while at the same time it was recruiting other people to replace them, presumably at a lesser rate. When the time came to facilitate the passengers, they were left stranded, bunged up at the airport with nowhere to go. They could not get in or out, or move forwards or backwards.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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It has been clear in the past couple of weeks that the DAA's effort to rightsize its workforce — to use its word — was not about reducing the overall numbers because it has since said it is trying to hire at the pre-pandemic level. Therefore, it was about reducing the levels of pay and the terms and conditions. The question we are asking today, which is important, is whether the Minister of State, the Minister for Transport or the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform raised any flags. The long-term goal of the DAA never changed. It is still moving ahead with its north runway and still has projections for 40 million-plus passengers moving through the terminals in eight, nine or ten years. Its long-term goals always remain the same, as do its infrastructure investment goals. Its staffing level will now be the same, but with staff on reduced pay and worse conditions. It is clear that the Government did not call it out on that.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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The difficulty many of us have, which we have articulated here or at meetings of the committee over recent weeks, is that whatever about the redundancies offered in 2020, the DAA knew by 2021 that it was looking at an uptake in numbers. Therefore, it was completely illogical for it to have 1,400 passengers miss flights in May 2022 as a result of its inaction over the previous 12 months. It just does not make any sense. Representatives of the DAA told us at one point during the course of last week or the week before that it did not know how many passengers were going to show up. I do not like using foul language and am not going to, but that is BS and they know it. For them to tell us they did not know how many passengers were going to show up when they had seats and slots booked and airlines expanding their routes just makes no sense. Therefore, there is more to this than we are being told or the DAA representatives let on before the committee.

I commend the Deputies, including my constituency colleague, for the questions put because this matter is really troublesome. I said two weeks ago in this Chamber that I would have serious concerns about the operations at Dublin Airport if the response I have mentioned was the response to a crisis and if 1,400 people missed out on their flights because of a failure to do the very basic thing, which is airport operations.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputies. As I said in response to a previous question, what happened on 31 May at Dublin Airport was completely unacceptable and fell well below the standards expected. We have engaged in our weekly meetings on this. The DAA has put in place a plan and presented it to the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications. It is critical that the DAA, which has statutory responsibility to operate and manage Dublin Airport, including in respect of required staffing levels, security staffing and the screening of staff who are needed, does what is required of it.

On the VSS, the terms and conditions are agreed by the Minister for Transport and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. That is required under the code of practice. However, regarding the number of staff targeted under the scheme, staffing levels are a matter for the DAA. Ministers or Governments do not run airports; that is the statutory responsibility of the DAA. That is what I have said at my meetings. When I met the chair of the DAA, I was very clear that the authority needs to restore the confidence of the travelling public to ensure everyone who turns up at the airport gets their flight on time. That is the role of the authority. I continue to be clear about that.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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When we had representatives of the DAA before us, they said they were relying on information from the best sources they could get, including the Minister of State's Department. Therefore, I will ask my question again: did the Minister of State agree with the DAA's analysis of the nature of the recovery? If so and if she was relying on the same evidence from her Department, does it mean its mechanism or market analysis needs to be reviewed?

The other question I asked was on Deputy Naughton's oversight, as Minister of State, with the Minister for Transport, of the redundancy package. What was her involvement? Did she share the DAA's objective on it?

On the Minister of State's weekly meetings, the end of the month is when the DAA says it will be on track regarding its staffing complement. We had concerning scenes at Dublin Airport in recent days in that there were very fine margins. How many security staff are currently employed?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I was very clear on the role of the Minister for Transport and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. The terms and conditions of the VSS were approved by both Ministers.

On staffing levels, the take-up under the VSS is completely a matter for the DAA. It runs the airport. It is looking at projections for passenger numbers. It is predicted that the return to the levels of 2019 will be in 2024 or 2025, but that is a matter for the DAA. It runs the airport, not the Department and certainly not Ministers. In fact, it would not be appropriate for a Minister to intervene in the operations of a commercial State body. That is the DAA's function.

To put the matter in context, the CEO said at the meeting of the joint committee that if he knew at the time what he knew now, he would not have made the decisions, but they certainly involved operational and management matters for the DAA. The Minister for Transport and I engage weekly with the DAA on the roll-out of the plan.

Since October 2021, 346 of the 370 additional security staff identified as required have been recruited, and the DAA expects to fill the remainder of the roles by the end of June. These figures were provided to me by the DAA. Of the 346 staff in place, 96 are still in training and these will be incrementally deployed as they complete their training and are certified. I have been told that once the 370 staff are deployed, which is to be by mid-July, the DAA's security staff level will be the equivalent of that of 2019. Again, these are operational issues for the DAA. Ensuring that passengers travelling through the airport make their flights on time is its role and responsibility. I have been categoric with the chair and management on that.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that the body charged with running the airport is the ultimate authority. Unfortunately, it did not seem to plan for what was happening and what everybody knew what is happening. The effect of Covid was that certain payments were made that were to be made to many employers throughout the country. A generous subsidy was invoked. However, it would appear that the airport authority seems to think it has got away with what occurred and walked clear and that it was able to explain it away. I would not advise a repetition of the performance, because it was not good enough. It would not reflect well on the country's ability to run a major company, particularly a very busy airport.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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The Minister of State has said in response to parliamentary questions this evening and at other times that the responsibility and priority of the Minister and Department is to ensure passengers' efficient travel through the airport. It has to be more than that, however, because we have to look out for the workers and the facility. Air travel is being driven by the low-cost airlines, which want to drive down the cost of flights and airport charges. If that happens, there will be underinvestment in our airport's facilities, infrastructure and staff and we will end up with terminal buildings that are just like sheds, with lines that stretch right down to the Cloughran roundabout and beyond. That is not where we need to or should go. Air travel should not be a race to the bottom. I am using the phrase in the broadest sense. We should value the workers and air travel. The aviation industry has a responsibility regarding the climate, employment and driving economic recovery and success in this country. That is where the bar has to be for the Minister of State, the Minister for Transport and the Government in general.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I agree with the Deputy on ensuring we have a functioning airport.

It is not just about people getting their flights, although that is an absolute because it is the key service, it is also about staffing. It is about ensuring that the infrastructure is in good repair. It is about a whole range of issues that the DAA is well equipped to deal with, given that it knows both its role and function. I am ensuring that, through these meetings, this continues to happen.

I absolutely agree with the Deputy that the DAA fell way below the standards. What happened is unacceptable, particularly on the weekend of 31 May, and we need to ensure it does not reoccur. That is my point. We are all on the same page. The DAA is on the same page with regard to ensuring that we have a successful airport that is safe for everybody, namely, those who work there and those who pass through it.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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We have one minute left for the question and the answer.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There is no point repeating the question. On the DAA, we all accept that it was a disaster and that the authority is paying for some of the sins of the past. The Minister of State referred to mid-July. Does that mean that by mid-July every one of the additional 370 staff previously identified as being needed will be in place, trained and certified? Anybody who has been in the airport recently will have noticed that it is getting by on a wing and a prayer. There is a sense that every other service, from cleaning to everything else, has probably fallen to one side, whether people are flying in or flying out.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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The marquees in terminal 1 and elsewhere are covering up the disorganised chaos we saw that Sunday in May. It is now organised chaos. While 1,400 people might not have missed their flights, turnaround times at the airport are unreasonably long because the DAA still does not have the necessary staff. The end of the month is rapidly approaching. A commitment from the Government and from the Minister to really ramp up the pressure on the DAA in regard to what we might expect in July is of key importance at this stage.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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In the context of the 370 staff, the DAA has told me that they should be deployed by mid-July and that, at that point, it should have security staffing levels equivalent to 2019. Again, I want to reassure Deputies of my engagement and that of the Minister with the management and with the chair of the DAA in this regard. It is about increasing security staffing in particular at the airport in order to relieve pressure. There are contingency plans in place through the triaging that the DAA feels will be adequate in ensuring passengers will be able to make their flights on time. We will continue to monitor this.