Dáil debates

Tuesday, 14 June 2022

Ceisteanna - Questions

Taoiseach's Meetings and Engagements

3:50 pm

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his most recent discussions with the Prime Minister of Ukraine. [24218/22]

Photo of Seán HaugheySeán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his most recent discussions with the Prime Minister of Ukraine. [26029/22]

Photo of Neale RichmondNeale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the Deputy Prime Minister of Ukraine. [30513/22]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, together.

I met with the Ukrainian Prime Minister, Mr. Denys Shmyhal, in Shannon Airport on 20 April. He gave me a first-hand account of events on the ground in Ukraine, including, in particular, the appalling killings and destruction in Bucha and the continuing attacks on civilians and towns. The Prime Minister, who was on his way to discussions at the International Monetary Fund, IMF, in Washington, outlined Ukraine's urgent need for financial assistance, both to enable the its Government to keep essential services going and to reconstruct infrastructure and buildings after the war. He also indicated areas where particular technical assistance will be required to help make Ukraine safe again in the face of the enormous damage caused by the war. He reiterated the determination of the Ukrainian Government to protect its people and resist the ongoing aggression by Russian forces.

I expressed Ireland's strong support for Ukraine's application to join the EU. The Commission will shortly publish its opinion on the application, which will be discussed by the European Council at its meeting later this month. I also expressed our support for the strongest sanctions against Russia and those in Russia supporting or facilitating the war. A significant sixth package of sanctions against Russia, which will see an end to the importation of 90% of Russian crude oil and petroleum products, was subsequently agreed at the special meeting of the European Council on 30 and 31 May. Prime Minister Shmyhal expressed his gratitude for Ireland's ongoing support for Ukraine, including in welcoming Ukrainians who have sought refuge in this country.

I met with the Ukrainian Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Dmytro Kuleba, during my visit to the World Economic Forum in Davos on 25 May. He briefed me, in particular, on latest developments in the war, especially in Donbas, where there have been a large number of both military and civilian casualties. I expressed my total horror at the brutal way in which Russian forces are destroying towns and villages. I also had an opportunity for a short exchange with the mayor of Kyiv, Mr. Vitali Klitschko, while in Davos.

I met with the Deputy Prime Minister of Ukraine, Ms Olga Stefanishyna, during her recent visit to Dublin on 3 June. She was especially focused on seeking support for Ukraine's EU application. She said that while the Ukrainian Government fully appreciates that joining the EU is a complex process, in which relevant criteria must be met, a strong signal from the European Council at this time would be of very significant value to the people of Ukraine, who are enduring so much. I expressed our support and undertook to engage with other EU leaders to ensure the most positive message possible is sent. I also met with the Speaker of the Ukrainian Parliament, Mr. Ruslan Stefanchuk, during my visit to the European Parliament on 8 June. I again set out Ireland's unequivocal support for his country and his people. He expressed his gratitude to the Government and people of Ireland. In my address to the European Parliament, I said that those countries looking to join the EU should be supported in undertaking the reforms and preparations necessary and that, when they meet the criteria, we should not place further barriers in their way. I expressed my hope that when the European Council meets in June and considers its application, it will be possible to send the people of Ukraine a clear and positive message.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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I thank the Taoiseach for the update on his meeting with the Ukrainian Prime Minister and for his expression of support from the Government for the rapid accession of Ukraine to the EU. I join him in expressing solidarity with the people of Ukraine and support for its speedy accession to the Union.

I met last week with the Ukrainian ambassador, Ms Gerasko Larysa, in Leinster House. In previous weeks, I invited members of the Ukrainian Action in Ireland group to meet with the leaders and Whips of other groupings in the Oireachtas. I commend all the voluntary actions being taken, including, for example, the opening of a new support hub for Ukrainians in Vicar Street, Dublin 8 at the weekend and the provision of free bicycles to Ukrainian refugees by Paul McQuaid of River Cycles in Usher's Island, also in Dublin 8. These and many other examples of voluntary activity around the country to support Ukrainians are hugely welcome. The ambassador conveyed to me her thanks to Ireland for the huge support we have given to Ukrainians fleeing war but expressed concern about accommodation and that the Ukrainian adults who come here wish to engage in paid employment. To facilitate them in doing so, we need to ensure there is adequate provision not only of school places but also of childcare. I undertook to raise those issues.

I once again express my condemnation of the horrific Russian war and the appalling breaches of international rules of war, including the filtration camps about which we are now hearing. We must all condemn the unspeakable horrors that are being visited on the people of Ukraine.

Photo of Seán HaugheySeán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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I am pleased the EU has been able finally to agree a sixth round of sanctions on Russia. As we know, there will be a ban on all seaborne oil from Russia. In addition, the country's largest bank, Sberbank, has been barred from the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication, SWIFT, system. However, it took a long time to agree this package. The Prime Minister of Hungary, Mr. Viktor Orbán, held up the agreement and a temporary exemption was given for piped oil imports. The negotiations were difficult and the final deal is not perfect.

Is there a weakening of solidarity with Ukraine within the EU? There are reports of difficulties, for instance, regarding the striking of a peace deal between Russia and Ukraine. France and Italy are talking with Putin, apparently, and the Baltic states are not particularly happy about that. Will Ukraine be made to accept the ceding of territory or be told it cannot join NATO as part of any potential peace agreement?

There is also opposition from some member states to Ukraine's application to join the EU being fast-tracked. I would like the Taoiseach to tell the House that EU solidarity is firm and that it is not being diminished regarding the issues I brought to his attention.

4:00 pm

Photo of Neale RichmondNeale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I am grateful for that comprehensive update from the Taoiseach. I join with others in strongly supporting his call for the full and rapid accession of Ukraine to the EU, as well as Moldova and Georgia in due course. One of the sad things, and we are over 100 days into this phase of the conflict, is that the attention of so many people is drifting. Sadly, it is drifting when the war is perhaps getting most vicious, particularly in the Donbas region. We see the true extent of the crimes that Russia is committing against the Ukrainian people. It is rarely being covered and is not being discussed to the same extent that it was in the first fortnight of the war. This happens with many conflicts and it is understandable. It behoves all of us who spoke so passionately on this previously, regardless of what side of the debate we were on or what angle, to continue to press this.

We have to remember this war is exacerbating so many of the difficulties that all the countries across the EU are facing. It is sickening to see Russia using food as a weapon in this war and especially food destined for the developing world. The Taoiseach talked about further EU sanctions. Like Deputy Haughey, I think the EU can go further and there can be a seventh round of sanctions. Regarding Ireland's role, the next time the EU agrees supports for Ukraine will we put financial resources behind EU lethal military support for the Ukrainians? Will we again look at the anti-aircraft missiles and Javelin missiles that are sitting in storage and soon to be disposed of and give those to the Ukrainian people who can use them to defend their lives, their homes and, indeed, Europe?

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I find it interesting that the Taoiseach met with the Deputy Prime Minister of Ukraine as she was on the way to the International Monetary Fund, IMF. People Before Profit-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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No.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I referred to the IMF, which the Taoiseach might possibly have heard of.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but it was the Prime Minister I met and not the Deputy Prime Minister, before he continued on to Washington.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Sorry. My apologies. Prime Minister Shmyhal was going to the IMF to seek financial assistance. Since the beginning of this, People Before Profit has been saying that we should support the calls for a unilateral cancellation of Ukrainian debt. It would make a significant difference to the ability of Ukrainians to restore and rebuild their country, which has been shattered by Putin's bloody war. Yet the Taoiseach and all the major powers that claim they are such great supporters of the Ukrainian people have resisted the call for cancellation of Ukrainian debt, just like the IMF has previously resisted the cancellation of the debts of many impoverished and war-devastated countries in Africa, the Middle East and so on. It seems that support for the international financial system is more important to the Taoiseach's Government and other western governments than actually assisting the Ukrainian people in their hour of need.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I also welcome the very clear position taken by the Government concerning Ukrainian accession to the EU. I wish to raise the issues of housing and the resourcing of childcare and school places, in particular in respect of what is available to Ukrainian people now living here. Others have pointed out the Trojan work being done by community and voluntary organisations, local schools and statutory agencies. The response is still being found wanting from the Government, however, in respect of resourcing.

Examples include the lack of capacity in early childcare and learning services for children of school age. I cite Dublin's inner city as an example, where serious resource issues existed prior to Putin's criminal war on Ukraine. I raised those issues with the Taoiseach on several occasions. Now, however, this situation has been exacerbated almost beyond breaking point. We saw last weekend reports of issues around housing and accommodation, with people sleeping on the floors of hotels. I am sure that is not what we want for anyone when we receive them into this country. What are the plans to up the funding available for childcare, early child learning, school places and accommodation?

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach has three and a half minutes to respond.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the Deputies for their contributions. I share with Deputy Bacik her horror at this war and the extraordinary inhumanity visited on the people of Ukraine. Towns have been levelled to oblivion almost in respect of buildings. Civilians have been targeted consistently. The Deputy also correctly identified a range of volunteer organisations and individuals that have been extremely supportive of the response here to the situation.

Regarding Ukraine's application for membership of the EU, there has been proactive diplomatic engagement by the Ukrainian Government. This has been represented most recently by the four parliamentarians here these days in respect of supporting Ukraine's application. We are engaging with the European Commission and its President, and with others, to pursue that. On Deputy Haughey's point, to be fair in the context of the sixth round of sanctions, it gets more challenging as we get higher up the rounds. The sanction on the importation of Russian oil is a significant move, because quite a number of EU countries are very dependent on Russian oil and gas, unlike us and some other states. Therefore, it is rather easier for us to declare our support in this regard. To be fair, countries such as Germany and others are taking on board significant pressure by reducing their dependency on Russian oil very quickly.

I do not believe there is a weakening of solidarity. As I said to Deputy Bacik regarding the application for EU membership, I hope that by the time of the next meeting of the European Council, in the next fortnight, that we will be able to achieve some degree of unity of purpose concerning Ukraine's application. There are challenges. Some countries have a more technocratic approach to applications to joining the EU. In a time of war, however, I believe it is necessary to send a simple and clear message to the people of Ukraine that they belong within the EU. We should be unequivocal about that message of support. I met with the speaker of the Ukrainian Parliament, as I said earlier. He sends his best wishes to the Ceann Comhairle and appreciates his recent meeting with him and with the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad. This clear message regarding the Ukrainian application is the point. Generally speaking, I favour a more proactive approach to enlargement in the western Balkans and in the neighbourhood of the EU more generally. A passive approach in this regard leads to manipulation by other powers that are not really advancing the cause of the citizens of those countries in the neighbourhood of the EU.

On the question of a ceasefire or a settlement, the leaders at the European Council have been adamant, especially the German Chancellor and the French President, that it is a matter for Ukraine to determine the timing and criteria governing any ceasefire and the conditions and so on. Also, in terms of the reconstruction of Ukraine, the governments of Europe stand ready to support that fairly substantially.

Deputy Richmond raised similar points. It is incomprehensible that food is being weaponised, with silos-----

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are out of time now.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Grain is not being allowed out of the ports. The strangulation of the ports by Russia is a significant problem. We support the provision of non-lethal weapons. That is the position of the Government. This has not held back the deployment of the EU Peace Facility, EPF.

On the point made by Deputy Boyd Barrett concerning the IMF and the seeking of financial assistance, again, the IMF is there to support many countries in distress. Without it, many countries would have gone under a long time ago. I do not see the IMF as the bogeyman in all of this. Rather, I see it as playing a constructive role in ensuring there is some degree of world order and in creating-----

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are out of time.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----the financial wherewithal to enable countries like Ukraine, and others, in situations like this to recover.

All of the western countries and democracies are working towards reconstruction and reconstruction funds to enable the reconstruction of Ukraine in the aftermath of the war.

In terms of childcare and education, we have provided significant resources to Ukrainians who have come into the country, as well as accommodation. It has been quite unprecedented. Parallel with that, we are now witnessing a significant increase in the number of those seeking asylum, separate from the Ukrainian situation. It could be three times what we anticipated this year alone. There are huge challenges facing us as a country in that respect.