Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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92. To ask the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment if sectoral carbon budgets targets can be met if the State also supports the building of liquified natural gas terminals and if this is in line with current climate science; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [28375/22]

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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This question is on the sectoral carbon budgets, but more in line with how these fit with the building of a liquified natural gas, LNG, terminal. It is clear from the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, report this week that we have a serious problem in this regard. It stems not just from the failure to implement the Government's plan but from the Government's plan itself. Even if the sectoral carbon budgets are to be set at the high end of our ambitions, that will still leave us with a serious emissions gap. The problem is that we are not even hitting those targets. The Minister talks about doubling down on the efforts being made. We seem to be living in parallel universes in this regard, however, with talk of ambitions, efforts, strategies, plans and targets. Will the Minister make a statement on this matter?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The Climate Action and Low Carbon Development (Amendment) Act 2021 commits Ireland to a legally-binding target of a climate neutral economy no later than 2050 and a reduction in emissions of 51% by 2030, compared to 2018 levels. Following the process set out in the Act, the carbon budget programme proposed by the Climate Change Advisory Council, CCAC, was approved by the Government on 21 February 2022, and subsequently adopted by the Oireachtas on 6 April 2022. This carbon budget programme comprises three successive five-year carbon budgets, namely, from 2021 to 2025, from 2026 to 2030 and from 2031 to 2035. Under the Act, as Minister, I must now prepare, within the limits of the agreed carbon budget programme, the maximum amount of greenhouse gas emissions, GHG, permitted in different sectors of the economy during a budget period, including in the electricity sector. Work on this is ongoing.

The Government's policy statement on importing fracked gas, which I understand was one part of the question the Deputy asked-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It was LNG.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Yes, sorry, it was LNG. The Government's policy statement on the importing of fracked gas was approved by the Government and published in May 2021. The policy statement provides that, pending the outcome of a review of the security of energy supply of Ireland's electricity and natural gas systems currently being carried out by my Department, it would not be appropriate for the development of any LNG terminals in Ireland to be permitted or proceeded with. This review is to be completed by later this year.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Therefore, pending the review where the energy security issue will be examined in light of all the hype around the war in Ukraine, we may, indeed, have an LNG terminal. I think there is a disconnect between what is happening and the rhetoric we are getting. The Government's inaction is clear on things like data centres in respect of their huge consumption of our energy. In this context, there is the strong possibility of an LNG terminal at Shannon. This is because there is ambivalence and ambiguity among all the party leaders, which is strongly reflected in a leaflet distributed around Shannon from New Fortress Energy and that quotes the three leaders of the Government parties in a favourable way.

Now we find out that the Tánaiste will meet the billionaire, snake oil salesman, Wes Edens, to discuss the project at a meeting set up by an enthusiastic Fine Gael councillor, Mike Kennelly. What we have here is a coterie of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael Deputies pushing the siting of an LNG terminal in this area with utter disregard for the implications for the climate and our target ambitions.

Denise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy really should not name people in the Chamber who are not present.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I am just stating a fact. The leaflet was signed by the very man, Wes Edens.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I heard the Tánaiste state in this House not too long ago, and I agree with him, that the future in regard to Shannon is in hydrogen. Let us consider Cork Harbour and the Shannon Estuary, where much of our heavy industry is located. It is where much of our electricity generation, oil refineries and pharmaceuticals are based, all of which will switch to hydrogen. It is also the location in which we will bring ashore the off-shore wind. That, through electrolysis converted to hydrogen, gives us the perfect, secure, indigenous, gas-alternative green hydrogen, not blue. The Shannon Estuary task force is undergoing its work at present. I look forward to its views and will tell it that the correct and best investment for us is to switch to a green hydrogen alternative.

Anytime I talk to people with real expertise in the energy area, in thinking forward five to ten years and considering what the best investment is, they believe the hydrogen alternative is the way to go. Frans Timmermans, the Vice President of the European Commission, gave an important speech in recent weeks. He set out how ports, particularly those that develop hydrogen, could be the centre of the new economy. I believe that will be the future for both Cork and Shannon.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I understand the Minister's beliefs and I think he holds them sincerely, but they clash with the continued push from many Deputies and people outside this House, such as local councillors and other business interests, for the LNG terminal at Shannon. An Bord Pleanála will make a decision on that soon. I would argue that the board has been hugely compromised in recent weeks, according to information that has come out about board members. Let us call it for what it is. This will be money-grubbing based on the likely profits of Mr. Edens and his followers from this project. It is the same attitude King Louis XV of France had when he said après moi, le déluge, after me comes the deluge. In other words, it really does not matter what happens after this Government. We build an LNG terminal, make money from it now, and the supporters of more fossil fuel infrastructure will be delighted. Once the floods have receded, who will pick up the pieces? This will be a huge kick in the stomach to the climate movement, Fridays for Future movement and local campaigns against the siting of an LNG terminal.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I am a big supporter of green hydrogen, off-shore wind, biomass and so on. The faster we can move in that direction, the better. I also support Deputy Bríd Smith in that we should not burn anymore LNG or fossil fuels; rather we should be reducing them. However, we are dependent on a pipeline from Moffat. The Minister, Deputy McGrath, told me earlier this week that there is a contingency plan if there is a squeeze in that supply this winter. What is that contingency plan?

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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We are right to talk about data centres and LNG, we must manage the data centres, and I do not believe that we need to build any LNG infrastructure. The Minister is correct in that there is a better way forward. However, we should not ignore the fact that electricity generation accounts for just about 15% of our emissions. The real challenge with carbon emission is in transport and agriculture, which accounts for 60% of our emissions. If we continually talk about the effects of data centres and LNG while not talking about the impacts of transport and agriculture, we will not meet our carbon emission reduction targets.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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In the provision of energy, we must get three things right. We must get the price right because we have to protect our householders. We must get the environment right and stop the planet from burning due to the local pollution that comes with a lot of fossil fuel use. We also must secure energy supply. I believe the development of hydrogen back-up power, storage and usage in power generation and in industries makes energy sense on all three criteria. To answer Deputy Stanton, our circumstances are different to other countries. We are not at risk, in the same way other countries are, because of the switching off of Russian gas. We are at risk of the higher prices because it is a fungible market. However, the real security risk for us is our reliance on fossil fuels, as was mentioned earlier. Those LNG ships, which people have said give security, have shown in the past year that they do not provide security. There is no guarantee. When the UK gas regulator found itself in the middle of the high-price crisis, it inquired if it could get ships. No, it could not because they were going to Asia. They turned around in the Atlantic and moved the other way. There is no real security in that route, whereas with the hydrogen alternative, we know wind can be converted into hydrogen and stored locally. We are not dependent on anyone else. Everyone is now looking at that as the major investment development.

We are developing a hydrogen strategy that will be developed at the same time as the energy security review and the Shannon strategy. I believe all three will come up with a sound, basic, commonsense energy analysis. In the context of five to ten years from now, that is the investment we should make.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Do I get to come back in?

Denise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry Deputy, your time is up. You came in twice.