Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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80. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if he will address the unfair anomaly that persists for some public sector workers, including teachers as a result of the two-tier pay system. [21626/22]

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I respectfully ask the Minister if he will address the unfair anomaly that persists for some public sector workers, including and especially teachers, as a result of the two-tier pay system that was introduced more than a decade ago, along with the other financial emergency measures in the public interest, FEMPI, cuts.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Healy-Rae for raising this issue. The reduced new entrant pay scales for civil and public servants introduced in 2011 were abolished in 2013 under the Haddington Road agreement, where it was agreed to merge the new pay scales and existing scales, typically by adding the lower two points of the new scale to the existing scale. As such, there are no separate reduced pay scales for civil and public servants.

Under the Public Service Stability Agreement 2018 to 2020, it was agreed to examine the remaining salary scale issues associated with the addition of the extra points for those recruited to entry grades after January 2011. The report, laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas in March 2018, estimated the point in time cost of advancing new entrants to the public service two points along their incremental scales. The report estimated a cost of just under €200 million in respect of 60,513 new entrants, an average cost of €3,300 per full-time equivalent.

Following this report, negotiations with the public services committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, took place over 2018 resulting in an agreement on new entrant salary scales being reached in September 2018. Further detail on this will be placed on the record.

For new entrant teachers, the parties to the current agreement, Building Momentum, agreed that in final conclusion to the arrangements put in place in September 2018 as part of the previous agreement, the following measures will be implemented to resolve in full the remaining salary scale issues pertaining to new entrant teachers. New entrant teachers who have been recruited since 1 January 2011, after progressing to point 11 of the teaching salary scale, will, on their next increment date, move to point 13. New entrant teachers, recruited since 1 January 2011, who have already reached point 12 or higher on the teaching salary scale, will, on their next increment date after the commencement of the agreement, move one point further than they would under normal incremental progression. These arrangements are set out in section 4.3 of the agreement.

Furthermore, as the Deputy will be aware, Building Momentum provides for a sectoral bargaining fund, which is the mechanism available to the parties under the present pay agreement framework to make progress on various sectoral pay matters of importance to them.

The arrangements are complex but I believe the issue has been dealt with. The current agreement provides that it is in full and final settlement of that issue of new entrant pay, and all parties have signed up to it. The Deputy and I can go into more detail in our engagement.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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It has been made very clear to me that the discrimination within the two-tier pay system in schools is having a deeply unsettling effect on the teaching profession. Lower pay is driving a significant number of people away from the profession.

The two-tier pay system has now been in place since 2011, more than a decade, and must be removed. Teachers who entered the system since 2011 are paid at a lower rate than their colleagues for carrying out the same work. Understandably, people are fed up and out of patience. They deserve and want more than what they are getting.

We were told by the former Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Joe McHugh, a few years ago that he would move to resolve the issue quickly. The current Minister has now been in place for almost two years and the matter is still not resolved. I am asking the Minister to settle this once and for all because it is unfair. These teachers, especially secondary teachers, are highly qualified and have to give a lot of their time to become qualified. We are losing them. They are going out of the country and schools are having a problem retaining teachers.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is an issue with which I am well familiar. I have discussed it directly with many individual teachers over the last decade or so. All the progress that has made has been made through collective negotiation and co-operation between trade union officials and officials in my Department and the Department of Education.

As I said, the current Building Momentum agreement specifically provides for skipping point 12 of the pay scale for new entrant teachers. The agreement states it will "resolve in full the remaining salary scale issues pertaining to new entrant teachers." That is what the current public service agreement, an agreed document between ICTU and the Government, currently provides for this and we are fully implementing that measure. We have made considerable progress in respect of that.

In a moment, perhaps I can touch on the sectoral bargaining fund, which is a channel through which any final remaining issues the unions believe are there can be dealt with. They have, for example, been raising issues about what was formerly known as the HDip and the allowance in respect of that. There is also an opportunity to have that issue addressed.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Millions have been spent educating these teachers and we cannot afford to lose them to countries like the United Arab Emirates and other places. The discrimination is having a deeply unsettling effect on the teaching profession. The Minister said an agreement has been reached or whatever. When will these teachers actually receive the pay they are being denied? That is the question. When will that happen? We are told there is already a deterioration in the quality of services being provided to the young students being taught because teachers are not staying. That has a kind of unsettling effect. When students get used to a certain teacher, it is hard for them to lose that teacher in the middle of their education.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I accept the importance of fully addressing this issue. I believe that building on the work that was completed in 2018, the new Building Momentum agreement provides for this incremental jump. It provides an additional increase of €1,700 per teacher. All those who are above point 12 also received an additional incremental jump to the next point on the pay scale. As I said, the skipping of point 12 on the salary scale for teachers is in addition to measures previously introduced in 2018, which provided for skipping points 4 and 8 on the relevant scales.

We are in a process whereby over the months ahead, we will be seeking to negotiate either an extension to the current agreement or a new agreement. It is always open to trade unions to raise any issues they regard as outstanding. We will then seek to address them through a process of negotiation. The current agreement, which is being implemented right now and being fully honoured by the Government, provides for resolving in full the remaining salary scale issues pertaining to new entrant teachers. That is what all parties have signed up to.