Dáil debates

Thursday, 10 March 2022

Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions

Defence Forces

9:40 am

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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8. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the status of the Commission on the Defence Forces report; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13191/22]

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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11. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence when he will announce the appointment of the independent chair of the Commission on the Defence Forces implementation body. [13475/22]

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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39. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the timeline for the implementation of the recommendations of the Commission on the Defence Forces by the Government; the recommendations that will be implemented; and the level of capability of the Defence Forces the Government will adopt based on the report. [13159/22]

Photo of Cathal CroweCathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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41. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence if he will provide details of the stages that lie ahead in terms of actioning the Commission on the Defence Forces report. [13310/22]

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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53. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the person he intends to appoint to the implementation body for the Commission on the Defence Forces report; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13233/22]

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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59. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the next steps regarding the Commission on the Defence Forces report; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13330/22]

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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What is the status of the excellent and very timely report of the Commission on the Defence Forces? This is a very important issue now given the invasion of Ukraine, the concerns worldwide about militarism and the lack of capacity in our own country to defend our shores.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 8, 11, 39, 41, 53 and 59 together.

The Commission on the Defence Forces was established on foot of a commitment in the programme for Government and a Government decision in December 2020, which also agreed its terms of reference and membership. The report was published on 9 February last. The commission undertook a significant body of work encompassing its wide-ranging terms of reference. The report contains 69 main recommendations and, together with subrecommendations, there are 130 recommendations in total. The commission's terms of reference included the consideration of appropriate capabilities, structures and staffing for the Army, the Air Corps and the Naval Service.

The report proposes significant changes for the Defence Forces, including to the Defence Forces' culture, high-level command and control structures, and for the level of defence provision in Ireland. These are matters that will require careful consideration and, in some critical aspects, interdepartmental discussion and agreement. This includes the level of resourcing that may be allocated to defence, legislative implications and the governance framework that will be required to underpin any changes the Government approves on foot of the commission's report.

I will also be seeking the views of my Department and the Defence Forces. The Defence Forces representative associations will be consulted on all matters that fall within the scope of representation, relating to the implementation of any approved plan. I will also engage with key stakeholders and the Oireachtas. I welcome the Dáil statements on the report that took place on 16 February. I firmly believe this is an opportunity to have a mature debate around the type of defence capabilities we require, and I am very much open to such a discussion. Current events are highlighting the importance of such a debate in terms of broader security questions. The intent is that, following relevant consultation and before the summer recess, it is hoped in June, I will revert to Government with a proposed response to the commission's recommendations and a high-level action plan. This high-level plan will set out proposed timelines and oversight arrangements for its implementation. For obvious reasons, I cannot go into what will be in that report.

We now have a really good and detailed commission report on the Defence Forces and their future, which is evidenced-based, looks at international benchmarks in an appropriate way, shows up, in my view, a significant underinvestment for decades in the Defence Forces, and capacity constraints and capacity gaps that need to be filled and responded to. For the first time in a very long time, we have a clear set of recommendations that I believe make sense and now need to be turned into a Government action plan for resourcing, change and reform across the Defence Forces. We need to invest in and build a Defence Forces that are fit for purpose now and into the future.

If ever we needed a reminder and a context as to why that is necessary, we see it now in terms of the war in Ukraine, where the security architecture of the Continent of Europe is being turned on its head. We have seen countries like Germany change foreign policy and defence policy overnight. We are seeing countries like Sweden and Finland seriously considering NATO membership for the first time with the support of the majority of their populations. Like other countries, Ireland needs to consider its place in the European Union, how we deal with defence issues, how we assess what is neutrality and military non-alignment today in the context of EU security, Irish security and the well-being of Irish people, and how we do that in the context of new and developing threats such as, for example, cyberthreats, which ten years ago were a non-issue but now probably are the most significant threat we face. In the middle of the pandemic we had a cyberattack on our health system that put lives at risk and cost the State well over €100 million to resolve and which is still not fully resolved. We face a combination of new types of threats, a changing geopolitical situation and far less stability on the Continent of Europe in terms of basic security but, in my view, there is a resolve and a new determination within the European Union to address and protect the kind of quality of life we expect and have built over the past five decades or so together within the European Union, which quite frankly is literally under attack right now with bombs, bullets and bloodshed.

With all of that in mind, we need to have a mature and evidence-based discussion on how Ireland moves forward in this space. The combination of that new context as well as probably the most significant report on defence in my lifetime, which I have now in front of me with a set of very clear recommendations, can, I hope, allow us to make informed policy choices and resourcing choices before the summer recess in terms of how we progress the defence agenda. I hope we will be able to achieve cross-party support for that. This is about designing a Defence Forces and a defence policy for the next 20 or 30 years. It is not just about the lifetime of one Government or one political party's view. That is the way I will be approaching it.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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The Minister outlined clearly the priorities, namely, the security of our State, our capacity to defend ourselves against external threat and, particularly important right now, the security of Europe. I welcome the Minister's commitment to come back to the House before the summer recess with a level of ambition which we will all, it is hoped, agree and support fully and will, I presume, include a commitment to increasing our defence spend significantly.

We cannot allow Russian warships to enter Irish-controlled waters, as they did recently, as we look on in astonishment rather than act in a military capacity to deter them should they attempt to do further or other acts.

We cannot be the weak spot in Europe. We cannot be the place where the vector of attack will come to attack the rest of Europe. I fully support a proper and appropriate debate. A citizens' assembly would make a lot of sense to discuss the implications.

9:50 am

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I commend the members of the Commission on the Defence Forces for producing such a thorough report. It is a credible and realistic report. It is credible because it highlights the significant lack of funding that has been put into our Defence Forces and how this needs to be rectified. The report is also realistic because it recognises Ireland never wants to be, and never will be, a heavily militarised state. I believe this represents the views of the majority of the people.

The report sets out a timeline of 2025 as a reasonable target date for the delivery of the transformation. Page 146 of the report sets out some steps that need to be taken relatively urgently by the Government. Although I would recommend and agree that the Department and the Defence Forces be consulted for their views, it is important we do not get engaged in too lengthy a debate. I ask the Minister to proceed with the appointment of an implementation oversight group, the appointment of an independent chair, the establishment of an implementation management office, and the appointment of external change management support.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There is a lot of focus here on neutrality and what neutrality means to people. This comes on the back of the horrendous actions in Ukraine. This report is also being used to further that political conversation. The underinvestment in our Defence Forces by successive governments, including this Government, has eroded what Ireland is supposed to be, which is militarily neutral. I would call out not just the Russians for using our waters but also the British, and the Americans for using Shannon Airport. If Ireland is neutral, then neutral means neutral against all countries and their militaries. We need to have that conversation but neutrality needs to be invested in. Neutrality comes at a cost. This is why the commission report is so important. Critical to that is the implementation of the report. Will the Minister clarify who will be appointed as the independent chair and will he also clarify the make-up of the implementation body?

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I commend the Minister and the commission on its work on the independent commission's report on the Defence Forces, and the commitment of the Government to ensure the Defence Forces are fit for purpose in the immediate term and seeking to develop a long-term vision beyond 2030.

There have been calls for quick movement on the recommendations within the report, and I am aware the Minister is keen to do so, where possible, while understanding there are significant recommendations that must be discussed and considered fully and their possible implications examined. Will the Minister provide some detail on how he intends to move forward with the report? Will he also look at how the recommendations that will impact significantly on current governance structures will be overcome?

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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There are a lot of questions there and I will try to get through them as quickly as I can. Deputy O'Dowd asked about the security of the State, the security of Europe, and Ireland's commitment to it. These are all very important questions

Neutrality does not mean we stay out of these debates. Deputy Brady has just said that neutrality means against all countries and against their militaries, equating the UK, the US, and Russia as if they were all in the same space. That is not neutrality to me, just to be clear.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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They are using our airspace.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Neutrality and military non-alignment to me mean that Ireland decides when and where we intervene, who we partner with, and what side we take on debates and in conflicts and so on. We decide and we are not tied into those positions by alliances we have signed up to. That is what non-alignment and military neutrality is for me. On the Russian invasion of Ukraine, we are not neutral. We have made it very clear we are taking sides here, from a humanitarian point of view and from a military support point of view, to allow Ukrainians to defend themselves, as best we can. Ireland is making a modest contribution towards those efforts. It is important to put some of those issues on the record.

I will come back to the other points.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister's comments. I must say to Deputy Brady over there that you raised funds in New York. I do not know if you raised them in Moscow. The reality is I would very much welcome American-----

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I never raised funds anywhere.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I did not interrupt Deputy Brady.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I never raised funds anywhere. The Deputy needs to withdraw that comment.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Your party does. Your party raised a lot of money from the United States-----

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy has made an accusation.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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-----and I am quite sure that some of the companies in the defence business contribute to your accounts as well.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy is accusing the military industry of funding my account.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Not your accounts. Your party; your Sinn Féin account.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy said my account.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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We cannot be neutral-----

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The time is running on and we are not given extra time.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I want to make it very clear-----

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is okay but Deputy O'Dowd has made a specific point in relation to Deputy Brady. Deputy O'Dowd might withdraw that, please.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Obviously I am not talking about his personal account. I am talking about his political party fundraising.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is just false as well. The Deputy is talking rubbish.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I just want to make the point that we cannot be neutral about the threats to our State. We cannot say "No" to our defence and to be part of the defence of Europe.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We will move on. Perhaps Members could use the time for the questions. It is up to them but the time is running.

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Minister to take on board what is contained in page 146 of the report that refers to the fact that, "During the course of its work, the Commission encountered significant scepticism from military personnel, representative associations and concerned members of the public about the likelihood of the recommendations of this report being fully implemented." The Minister is the only person who can answer that scepticism and convince the members of the commission and the public this is going to be different. There have been reports that have simply gathered dust on shelves. There is a complete recognition now, and not just as a result of the invasion of Ukraine by Russia but also in terms of an objective assessment of Ireland's military capacity, that we need to do more. We need to strengthen our Defence Forces and we need to do it in a variety of ways, as recommended by the commission.

On the point of neutrality, I do not believe we should necessarily integrate both topics into the one debate, but neutrality does not mean as a country that we are neutered. We have strong political opinions in this country and it is important our Government expresses them. The Minister has expressed it. We need to condemn continually the illegal, unlawful and brutal Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I asked a question. Can I come back on that?

Photo of Dara CallearyDara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the question on the implementation of this report because it needs to be a pivot point in the funding of our Defence Forces to stop the haemorrhaging of members from them. Implementation will be key, which needs a very strong implementation body. The independence of the chair to be appointed to that body will also be key, and critical to that body are the representative organisations such as PDFORRA, RACO and the Reserve Defence Force representative body, so that their voices are heard and are able to be articulated on that implementation body. Will the Minister give a commitment that those bodies will be represented on the implementation body once it is established?

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On a day that an expert-led discussion on cybersecurity is happening in Dublin around new attack vectors and around geopolitical tension, I draw the Minister's attention to how we should be significantly strengthening the military intelligence and cyber defence capabilities of our Defence Forces. The commission believes cyberspace is a dynamic and rapidly evolving area and will be a key military domain in the period to 2030 and beyond. I would welcome the Minister's thoughts on the joint cyber defence command managing cyber defence, defence IT services, encountering of hybrid aggression, and emergent technology.

Photo of Jennifer Carroll MacNeillJennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his response. In recent decades we have been very much at peace with our geopolitical system and we have not yet felt any threat whatsoever. We are on notice now that everything is different and will be different for the decades to come. We must respond differently and this commission's report is a timely intervention in that.

Deputy O'Callaghan said this is ultimately up to the Minister, but there is a broad swathe of political opinion and political support developing for the sorts of changes that are needed, while recognising the resource implications involved. What I am hearing from my constituency and the people I represent is a very strong desire that Ireland be capable of protecting itself, its people, its cybersecurity and its territory. We will consider whatever happens after that, but as a baseline we need to be sure we are able to protect ourselves. We are on notice now, in a way we never were before, that our previous assumptions about how we might be protected in the event of some aggression are finished.

10:00 am

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I hope the Acting Chair will give me a little extra time given the number of Deputies in this grouping. The scepticism around whether this report will be implemented in full is fair. Even though there is a significant body of work on this and most people I have spoken to accept it is necessary to implement these recommendations now, there is understandable scepticism because this would mean a complete change in the setting of the resource base for defence, that is, where we start from. Effectively, the report is recommending we move to an increased level of ambition but it is still relatively modest. The report looked at seven or eight peer group countries that are similar to Ireland in population, wealth, defence concerns and so on, and it is proposing we move from where we are at the moment, which is spending about a third of what they spend on defence, to spending about half of what they spend. That was even before Ukraine. It recommends we have a longer and more considered discussion as to whether to move beyond that to the third level of ambition, which some people are advocating for now given the new security concerns coming from the east.

No part of the report is suggesting Ireland become a militarised country by international standards. The recommendation is we move to half of the resourcing norm across Europe, have basic military capacity and plug gaps that are itemised quite clearly. That includes, as Deputy Dillon noted, looking seriously at significantly strengthening the military intelligence and cybersecurity capacities of the Defence Forces, such as through the creation of a joint cyber defence command. That is a very strong recommendation we need to deliver on in quite a comprehensive way and as a priority.

On the process for how we will move on this, my Department, in consultation with the Defence Forces and other stakeholders, needs a number of months to get its head around how to implement change on this scale. It is not just about financial resourcing. It is also about a very fundamental restructuring of the Army, completely changing how the Naval Service operates in terms of double-crewing, which effectively means adding significant numbers to the Naval Service, and looking at a series of changes in the fundamental capacity of the Air Corps. All of that takes time to plan for. My colleague, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, and the Taoiseach's office have to be involved in those discussions as well because this is a Government decision about the country fundamentally changing the way we approach defence from a resourcing point of view. It is a question of how we plan for that over a decade, not just over a year. I hope to be able to bring that forward in June for consideration. I look forward to bringing the matter back to this House and not only getting Government support but support from other parties in this House as well.