Dáil debates

Wednesday, 9 March 2022

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

School Transport

9:32 am

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Josepha Madigan, for attending to take this matter. I am back again, as this is my third or fourth time dealing with the issue. The pressure on schools in east Cork again this year is very high. There are long waiting lists in all of the schools and this has been the case for many years, for many reasons. It has led to a situation where parents are compelled to apply to more than one school. In east Cork, Carrigtwohill and Midleton are 3 km or 4 km apart and there are four second-level schools in Midleton and two in Carrigtwohill.

The Minister of State is an accomplished legal person and I understand the Leas-Cheann Comhairle is an accomplished barrister, so they might be able to help me with this issue. When an application is made on behalf of a child to attend a school and that child is put on a waiting list, that is tantamount to a refusal. The next step is to appeal that to the board of management. If that is refused, under section 29 of the Education Act it goes to the Minister and the Department. If that is refused, the child is entitled to school transport to the next nearest school. This is challenging and because parents do not know this information, they apply to many different schools. Eventually, they are accepted in one, which may not be the nearest school. When they look for school transport, they are asked for the paperwork to show they have been refused in the nearest school, that they appealed it to the board and were refused, and that they appealed it to the Minister and were refused, so that, now, they can be given school transport. Parents do not know this. The child is then on the concessionary list for spare seats on a bus, which may appear or not.

This is madness. The stress and strain on children and parents trying to access places is the same every year. What I am suggesting to the Minister for the third or fourth time is that, in this particular case, where there are six schools in very close proximity, we designate that area as one education centre, and the problem is sorted regarding school transport. I understand the Minister can do it with one stroke of a pen.

I acknowledge that a review is ongoing. The review of school transport started in October 2019 but I understand it still has not been completed and that it was only in January of this year that it went for public consultation. We are waiting for this review. In the interim, I and my colleagues are facing this problem every year where children have to wait and wait, and the waiting lists are long again this year.

I hope the people in the Department are listening to me, and maybe they are not - I do not know. I ask the Minister to look at this solution. It is a simple solution and it would take a lot of pressure off principals, Bus Éireann, parents and children, and it will not cost a whole lot at the end of the day. If there are four schools in one town and the child applies to the nearest school, technically, we can get out a tape measure to find that the nearest school is a couple of hundred yards away from the next nearest school.

If we wanted to be really pedantic about it, we could say a person should go to that school and not the other school even though they are in the same town. I suggest moving that on a little further by taking two adjacent towns a couple of kilometres apart, with four secondary schools in one and two in the other, and making that one education centre. That solves many problems for many people and makes it very simple. I look forward to the Minister of State's response to this.

We are facing long waiting lists in east Cork again this year. The Minister, Taoiseach, school principals, Deputy O'Connor and I met last year to discuss this issue. That will tell the Minister of State how serious this is. It was unprecedented. It was sorted last year by the provision of extra places but we are back this year with the same scenario. What is going on as well, of course, is that parents apply to more than one school and therefore there are long waiting lists. There is a modelin County Limerick where they have a kind of central applications office for secondary schools and that helps. Perhaps that is something the Minister of State might also consider in cases such as this.

9:42 am

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am a full-time Teachta Dála.

Photo of Josepha MadiganJosepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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We are still lawyers, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We are legal eagles

Photo of Josepha MadiganJosepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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That is true although neither of us is practising at present.

I thank the Deputy for raising this important Topical Issue matter. He will appreciate that I am taking this today on behalf of the Minister for Education. Transport is not directly under my remit. The Deputy is quite correct, however. A review is ongoing at the moment. I understand that recommendations will be coming shortly from the steering group, which will examine issues such as the effectiveness of the scheme, sustainability, climate action, rural development and all other important pertinent issues.

Approximately 121,400 children avail of the school transport scheme on an annual basis, of whom 15,500 are children with additional needs, which obviously falls under my remit, at a cost of €289 million in total. I understand that in the areas the Deputy mentioned, approximately 292 children avail of the particular services he outlined. I acknowledge what he said about Carrigtwohill and Midleton being separate and distinct post-primary centres. I understand they are 9 km from each other. The Deputy knows County Cork better than me

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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No.

Photo of Josepha MadiganJosepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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That is the briefing I have here. I also understand from the Department's response that there are no plans at present to recognise both as one education centre. The Deputy is correct that there are two post-primary schools in Carrigtwohill, that is, Carrigtwohill Post-Primary School and St Aloysius' College, and four in Midleton, namely, Midleton C.B.S. Secondary School, St. Mary's High School, St. Colman's Community College and Midleton College.

I also understand that 168 pupils who live in Carrigtwohill avail of transport to Midleton and that 141 pupils who attend Midleton avail of transport alleviation measures. I appreciate what the Deputy said about concessionary services as well. I know there are additional services and increased-size buses were provided in terms of an interim measure before the review kicks in. My understanding is that the review is ongoing. The fact that the Deputy brought it up in the Dáil may be no harm. The Department will be aware of it and can take that into account when it is undertaking its review.

They are two distinct post-primary centres and my understanding is that the Department has no plans to change that at present. It is important that children have transport, however. My understanding is there is no child without transport to and from school at the moment.

From what the Deputy said, even though it is a separate issue, the waiting list issue is interlinked. Again, I will bring his contribution to the Minister for Education. The Deputy mentioned that he had a meeting with her because of the issues around this. I am aware of it on a regular basis in that I must ensure children with additional needs all receive placements and an appropriate education, preferably in their locality. It is not always possible but that is what we endeavour to do. Obviously, that applies for mainstream schools as well.

It is difficult to micromanage if parents put their names down for different schools at the same time. Nevertheless, I understand the rationale for doing so when the Deputy tells me they are concerned that their child may not get into a particular school and, therefore, cover all bases by putting the children's names down. The Department has a geographical information system in order that it can forecast and anticipate demand and capacity in different areas through the building and planning unit. That is obviously something else that needs to be looked at in this regard.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for her response. This review started in October 2019. I know we had a pandemic but it is still ongoing. I understand it is only this year that public representations are being sought. I am disappointed that the Department has no plans to make the change. I would like to know why not. Would it cause some major rupture to policy all over the place? Why is this not happening? Does the Minister not have the authority to do this?

The distance between the two centres is just over 7 km. I checked that and it is quite short. At the moment, however, parents have no choice but to apply to more than one school. Sometimes, they are applying to four different schools in the hope the child might get into one of them. That is leading to all these long waiting lists. If the parents and their child eventually get admission to a particular school, which is not the nearest, they will grab it with both hands because they are afraid they will have no place. The stress this is causing for children is shocking. Children aged 11 or 12 say all their friends have a school place but they do not, and they ask if something is wrong with them.

I am putting forward a very simple solution. If the Department has just decided it is not doing it then tell the Department to do it. I ask that the Minister actually gives an instruction to do this - make it one centre and get on with it. Let us take away the stress and pressure that is on people. It will not cost any more but it will relieve much pressure on Bus Éireann, parents, school principals and the pupils themselves.

As the Minister of State mentioned special education, I will also bring up the fact that many young children from my area with additional educational needs must travel very long distances to get to school. I have been saying repeatedly that we need a special school in east Cork in order that the school transport issue is solved there as well. Perhaps the Minister would look at that issue and come back to me at some future date. I again ask that the issue of education centres be looked at. We met the Minister last year on the same topic. This is a perennial issue. The solution is simple; let us get on with it.

Photo of Josepha MadiganJosepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I hear what the Deputy is saying around this. My understanding from my instructions, to use a legal phrase, is that the Department has no plans-----

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Change the plans.

Photo of Josepha MadiganJosepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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-----to recognise one centre. That is not to say it will not, however. I think it will consider this following the Deputy's contribution. There is certainly an argument for a more streamlined approach, bearing in mind the criteria, difficulties and challenges parents are facing and the stress delineated by him.

I would surmise that because this review is ongoing, this is something that will be looked at. As I said earlier, my understanding is that recommendations will be coming shortly from the steering group, which will be looking at school transport in general terms around eligibility criteria, trends, cost drivers and all that kind of thing to assess the overall effectiveness in meeting the objectives of the schemes.

I also hear what the Deputy said around children with additional needs. We are looking at special schools. We opened three special schools in the past two years - one in Carrigaline, County Cork and two in Dublin. We will always endeavour to provide special schools where they are needed if there is not capacity.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We need one.

Photo of Josepha MadiganJosepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that. The Deputy and I speak about this outside the Dáil Chamber on a regular basis. I will obviously take that very seriously and look to see what we can do in that regard.