Dáil debates

Tuesday, 8 March 2022

Ceisteanna - Questions

Taoiseach's Meetings and Engagements

4:15 pm

Photo of Neale RichmondNeale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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7. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the German Chancellor. [11438/22]

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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8. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the German Chancellor. [11090/22]

Photo of Seán HaugheySeán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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9. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the German Chancellor. [12786/22]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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10. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the German Chancellor. [12790/22]

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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11. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the German Chancellor. [12793/22]

Photo of Ruairi Ó MurchúRuairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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12. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the German Chancellor. [12798/22]

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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13. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the German Chancellor. [12802/22]

Photo of Barry CowenBarry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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14. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the German Chancellor. [12884/22]

Photo of Mick BarryMick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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15. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the German Chancellor. [12961/22]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 to 15, inclusive, together.

I visited Berlin for a one-day programme of events on 22 February. I met the German Chancellor, Olaf Scholz. We discussed the extremely concerning situation in Ukraine which has deteriorated significantly since our meeting. Ireland stands with our EU partners in making clear that there can be no compromise on Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity. The invasion by Russia of Ukraine and its attack on its people is an outrageous and immoral breach of the most fundamental and basic principles of international law. Our thoughts are with the people of Ukraine in their most difficult hour.

The Chancellor and I discussed bilateral relations between our two countries. Ireland and Germany are old and close friends and relations between us are growing stronger all the time. We looked forward to deepening even further our economic and trade links and to strengthening cultural connections between our two countries. We also work closely together in the EU, where we are of like mind on so many of the vital challenges we face.

The Chancellor and I also discussed a number of issues on the European Council's agenda, including economic recovery and investment. As we drive forward with the green and digital transformations, we need to ensure we take advantage of these new opportunities to deliver high-quality and high-skilled jobs across the European Union. Our Governments share a high level of ambition on climate action and we both support the EU's climate goals for 2030 and beyond.

I was glad to have the opportunity to thank the Chancellor in person for Germany's support and solidarity throughout the Brexit process. I also took the opportunity to brief Chancellor Scholz on the difficult political situation in Northern Ireland, and the importance of ensuring a period of calm ahead of the Northern Ireland Assembly elections in May. Both Ireland and Germany want to see a strong and durable partnership between the European Union and the United Kingdom in the future. For this to happen, existing agreements, including the protocol, need to be implemented in good faith.

While in Berlin I had a meeting with Dr. Christian Bruch, CEO of Siemens Energy, and representatives of IDA Ireland, during which we discussed the outlook for renewable energy development across Europe and here in Ireland.

Before departing Berlin, I laid a wreath on behalf of the Government and the people of Ireland at the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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As there are at least eight speakers for these questions, I will allow one minute per person. We are already over time.

Photo of Neale RichmondNeale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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When I submitted this question two weeks ago, the content and tone of the Taoiseach’s meeting would have been very different from today. It is absolutely telling that when the Taoiseach finished his comments, he mentioned that he laid a wreath at a memorial to those who perished in the Holocaust. Just last week, we saw the graveyard of many people who had been killed by Nazi soldiers in Ukraine bombed again.

My four supplementary questions might not relate directly to the Taoiseach's recent meeting but might be relevant to future discussions. I would have liked to have talked a great deal more about the economy and Ireland’s bilateral relationship. I will put my four questions. First, do the Taoiseach and the Chancellor believe there is scope for further EU sanctions against Russia? I believe a great deal more can be done in respect of tying up loopholes. Second, what discussions were there on future energy divestment? I refer not only to moving away from a reliance on fossil fuels but also and in particular from a reliance on imported gas and oil from Russia. Third, an area that needs real focus is greater co-operation between Ireland, Germany and all partners in identifying security threats. Fourth, has there been any discussion on organising refugee airlifts from Poland?

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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As the Taoiseach said, since his meeting with Chancellor Scholz, the situation in Ukraine has deteriorated. Russia’s violation of international law and its succession of war crimes have played out and continue to play out before the eyes of the world. Nearly 2 million men, women and children are estimated to have fled. As today is International Women’s Day, we are particularly mindful of the Ukrainian women who have fled in such numbers with their children and we send our solidarity to them. Under the Geneva Convention, Russia has an international obligation to open humanitarian corridors to facilitate evacuations and to enable NGOs to provide food, water and medicine for those who remain. As a respected non-aligned nation with a long and distinguished history of peacekeeping and a seat on the UN Security Council, I believe we are very well placed to press for that.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank the Deputy.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I echo the Taoiseach’s thanks to Chancellor Scholz and to the German Government for their solidarity regarding the Good Friday Agreement and the Irish protocol. It is extremely difficult to run through all of my contribution in one minute, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We are way over time.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is a bit ridiculous.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I agree absolutely but now is not the time to argue because the clock is running. Certainly, it is very difficult. I call Deputy Boyd Barrett, who also has one minute.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Today, the Taoiseach once again rightly, as we all do, condemned the crimes against humanity of Vladimir Putin in the invasion of Ukraine. The Taoiseach has cited his support for sanctions and so on against Russia, with the possible replacement of Russian gas and energy. The Taoiseach may be interested to know that as one response to this, President Joseph Biden’s advisers are considering that he should go to Saudi Arabia to replace Russian oil with Saudi Arabian oil. I wonder what the Taoiseach thinks about the irony of this because Saudi Arabia is a brutal dictatorship supported by the US and the UK, armed by them, and engaged in a bloody war in Yemen. Does the Taoiseach think it would be consistent to replace the oil and gas from Russia, one despotic warmongering country, with the oil of another despotic warmongering country, Saudi Arabia?

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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Did the Taoiseach raise with Chancellor Scholz the urgent need for the cancellation of Ukrainian debt? If not, will he raise it at the meeting in Versailles? This is a demand from ordinary people in Ukraine for a cancellation of the debt which is a crushing burden on the economy. The total foreign debt of Ukraine is $125 billion and debt-servicing expenditure for 2022 is expected to be around $6.2 billion, or 12% of all state budgetary expenditure in the year. The IMF component of that debt is approximately one half. The people of Ukraine are subject to a brutal austerity programme by virtue of an IMF so-called bailout. The people of Ukraine are saying that this debt needs to be completely cancelled.

That is an immediate assistance that could be provided to the people. Will the Taoiseach raise this at the meeting in Versailles?

4:25 pm

Photo of Ruairi Ó MurchúRuairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The situation has obviously got worse since these questions were tabled. Some of us met the Ukrainian ambassador earlier. She is calling for the Russian ambassador here to be given his marching orders and, beyond that, to cut off seaports and such to the Russians. This creates difficulties, particularly for Germany. What conversations have there been in that regard at EU level? I also accept Deputy Boyd Barrett's comment with regard to Saudi Arabia and the fact that the west has failed to deal with other sets of oppressors and invaders. Was there any conversation about the dangers of hybrid and cyber attacks? What mitigations are there in respect of the energy costs we are dealing with?

Photo of Barry CowenBarry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Did the Taoiseach discuss the energy crisis during his meeting with the German Chancellor? For example, did the Taoiseach seek the German Chancellor's support were he to raise at the meeting in Versailles the option for the European Union to champion the provision of a European renewable super-energy grid, combining the potential of Ireland's west coast offshore capabilities with southern Europe's solar potential? While this would surpass the programme for Government commitments in this regard by the Government, it would be the beginning of a solution that would see us at the start of a pipe rather than at the end of one for Russian gas. This creates a huge opportunity for our country and for Europe and I hope the Taoiseach will initiate a process in the leadership meeting to allow Europe to return at the next meeting with a response to that request.

Photo of Mick BarryMick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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The German Chancellor has decided to triple military spending and to rearm Germany. Presumably, he will attend the meeting of European leaders in Versailles this week and, no doubt, will encourage other European leaders to follow his example. Who will provide a voice of sanity at this gathering and say, "No"? Europe should not engage in a massive arms race. The Continent should not be divided into armed camps. Will anyone dare to point out that a German rearmament, an arms race and increased co-operation with the United States and NATO will play into Putin's hands and make it easier for him to rally Russians behind him and try to undermine the anti-war movement in that country? Will Ireland provide such a voice of sanity, or will the Irish Government join with the other leaders and take further steps down the road of militarising Europe?

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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For the last three months, Aontú has been calling for a decrease in excise duties and VAT on fuel. The reduction of VAT and excise duties would drastically reduce the cost of fuel immediately. Many other countries have done it, yet this Government appears not to have even asked the European Union if it can do it. Also, with regard to OPEC, what pressure is this country and the international community putting on OPEC to increase the supply of oil into the market to help with the cost spikes?

Finally, should this time not be used to redouble our efforts to decarbonise the economy for global warming reasons, cost-of-living reasons and geopolitical reasons? Should we not be looking to increase the number of microgeneration units that can have access to the grid with a feed-in tariff? Should there not be more of an effort now to provide grants for electric cars? Should there not be a stronger effort to reduce our level of dependence on carbon fuels?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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First, there is an overall theme in the replies. Deputy Boyd Barrett raised the issue of Saudi Arabian oil as opposed to Russian oil. I believe Deputy Cowen hit the nail on the head. It is not to choose, but to end our dependency on fossil fuels and to end our dependency on Russian gas and oil, in particular, because there is a vulnerability-----

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Not so much Saudi Arabia.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not agree with the Deputy's moral equivalence.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Jesus, they just chop up people with swords.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The one country in the world that has wreaked terrible war on a people is Russia. The Deputy keeps trying to qualify and dilute it.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I am just against all dictators.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Let us keep a singular focus now on Russia and what it is doing - killing women and children.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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Why not Saudi Arabia?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Stop coming in here every day trying to qualify it and having an each-way bet.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is the same in Yemen.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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It is the same in Yemen.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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What I am witnessing is appalling. I want to say this much: I have no truck with any despot or any dictatorship regime.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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What about what is happening in Yemen?

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Let the Taoiseach reply.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I know that the European Union is the most peaceful organisation on the international geopolitical landscape right now. Europe is the biggest donor to Ukraine right now. Europe is the biggest donor to Africa right now. Europe has been the biggest donor of vaccines across the globe. Europe is playing its part, and all I hear here are attempts to try to undermine Europe's role. The next objective has to be-----

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is selling arms to the Saudi dictatorship. The Taoiseach does not want to mention that. It is embarrassing.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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My view, in terms of what everybody has said here, is that the fundamental change and the lesson from this war, which is as clear as night follows day, is that we must double down on renewables. That is the ultimate way out of this, so that countries do not have leverage to shield and protect their despotic regimes. That is the lesson. Germany has worked very hard for decades to reach out the hand of friendship to Russia, to work with Russia and to have strategic patience in terms of how Russia might develop and so forth. I do not decry, and we are in no position to lecture, Germany now. Germany has not invested in its military to the same extent as others have for decades, for obvious historical reasons. However, this attack, turning the world's rule-based order upside down, means Germany has to take the action it is taking. I cannot criticise Germany for what it is doing. Germany must make sure that its people and its way of life are protected. It is vulnerable. Europe is vulnerable now, if one looks at the array of military hardware that was on display at sea, in the air and on the ground by Russia in the last month or so. We have to wake up and smell the coffee.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Taoiseach certainly does.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are realities here.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Taoiseach, we are out of time.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I believe Europe needs to work very hard on renewables. The idea of a super, pan-European renewable grid is something that will take time to develop, but it is something on which Europe should focus. I will raise it with the European Commission and others. By the way, the European Commission has said that when it looks at the energy map of Europe, the only way out is more renewables.

Question No. 16 withdrawn.